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Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by 12strings, May 30, 2012.
For the Calvinists: How do you fit the belief in Unconditional Election with verses like these?
For those who are not Calvinists, how do they fit the belief of free will with verses like that? I mean if someone is just going to be judged because they didn't choose Christ, isn't THAT partiality?
For does not the Scriptures show the impartiality of God in Galatians:
3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Seems like God shows no partiality of condemnation, the promise of salvation given by the faith of Jesus Christ, and the response to that faith by them that believe.
The nature of partiality is that there is something special, something wanted, or something needed in the chosen that drives God to choose the elect. That simply is not the case. Election is based solely on the will of God, thus there is no partiality.
Great point. That election is an act of grace is the exact opposite of partiality. We are not meritting or earning this standing before God. If God is partial, then he is partial to his good pleasure, will, and design that he has decreed.
If God doesn't elect based on "something", then his choices are random. Is God random?
He didn't say God's election was based on nothing. He said it was "solely based on the will of God." That is something, I'd say.
Then God's will is partial in deciding on who He picks.
Why must man think that God must make man as worthy to understand why He would elect?
Because it may seem as there are only "random or something" to the human condition, then to man it is either a rational God who makes a choice on "unmerited favor" or some man generated scheme in which man's involvement is a key necessity.
If, as the Scriptures teach, that God's ways are far above humankind's ability to understand, then it follows that it is neither random nor something "in man" that is the catalyst of God's unmerited favor.
No... to be partial implies that the choice is based on a meritorious act. But we are all equally scum.
You can't have it two ways. You can't have God choosing people based on nothing and it not be random. Saying that he chooses based upon "His will" is a cop out. If you insist on saying it is just based on "His will", then his will is either random or based on some conditions.
You can't have it both ways. Either there are conditions, or it is random.
His election being base don His will is hardly a cop out. In fact, it is what Scripture actually tells us.
I am partial to Tillamook's huckleberry ice cream. It is creamy, not too rich, and...well, huckleberry. I am partial to it because it brings me pleasure in taste and texture. It offers me something.
I am partial to trucks, especially Ford trucks. Trucks are easier for me to get in and out of physically. So they make life better for me in dealing with my back issues. I like Ford's because I have had no major mechanical issues with any of the Ford's I have owned over the years. I am partial to them because they bring me comfort and peace of mind. Trucks are also useful for me in ministry and other practices. Ford trucks offer me something.
God does not elect people the way I elect which ice cream to buy or which vehicle to drive. He does not elect us base on our wealth, race, gender, or some innate goodness. The Jews are His chosen people because He chose them, not because of anything else. He chose them, therefore they are chosen. In the same way, the elect are His based solely on His sovereign will being manifested in election. The elect cannot and do not offer God anything.
Do those who have a problem with election working like this also have a problem with the unconditional covenant given to Abram?
Greektim, do you feel that those of us not holding to DoG, feel ourselves elevated at all above the level of "scum"?
The scriptures in fact show us whom God has chosen and WHY.
Jam 2:5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?
God has chosen the poor of this world, not because they are poor, but because they are rich in faith. Any reading of scripture, especially the Psalms sees that the poor and oppressed are those who trust in God.
Psa 10:14 Thou hast seen it; for thou beholdest mischief and spite, to requite it with thy hand: the poor committeth himself unto thee; thou art the helper of the fatherless.
Psa14:6 Ye have shamed the counsel of the poor, because the LORD is his refuge.
Psa 34:6 This poor man cried, and the LORD heard him, and saved him out of all his troubles.
The Lord chooses those that trust in him. More often than not, this is the poor, the fatherless, and the oppressed. It is those the world has rejected, but who place their faith in God to help and deliver them.
1 Cor 1:26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
It is no mystery whom God has chosen and why, it is clearly stated in scripture.
It does not mean He chose those who lacked wealth. It means He chose those who are poor in spirit. This is seen clearly in Matthew 5. That does not mean that was the reason He chose them, only that they were in that state. We know this is true because a key aspect of the Gospel is our need for a Savior. This is true so that we do not boast in ourselves but boast in Him.
1Co 1:26 For consider your calling, brethren, that there were not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble;
1Co 1:27 but God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong,
1Co 1:28 and the base things of the world and the despised God has chosen, the things that are not, so that He may nullify the things that are,
1Co 1:29 so that no man may boast before God.
1Co 1:30 But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,
1Co 1:31 so that, just as it is written, "LET HIM WHO BOASTS, BOAST IN THE LORD." (NASB)
Acts 10:34 - in the following verse (v. 35) Luke writes, "but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him." The idea being that God shows no partiality on the basis on ethnicity. The Calvinist would affirm this.
Romans 2:11 - Romans 2:9-11 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God.
Again we see that God does not show partiality on the basis of ethnicity. Both Jew and Gentile (Greek) can be equally judged or equally blessed. The Calvinist would affirm this.
Galatians 2:6 - Similar to the preceding two passages. In this case God did not defer to the leading Jews because of their position. Human authority is not a determinate factor in God's calling of His elect (1 Cor. 1:26, 27). Again, the Calvinist would affirm this.
Ephesians 6:9 - Once again God does not show deference to people based on their position; in this case master and servant. This is another that Calvinists affirm.
James 2:1 - Within the Church we are not to show favoritism towards others based on how the look, what they wear, how much money they have, or their celebrity status. Calvinists have no problem with this.
James 2:9 - Sames as James 2:1 with an "amen" from your friendly neighborhood Calvinist.
You are correct, God chooses those that are humble, those that are poor in spirit. But this is often the financially poor, the fatherless, and widows. These are folks who have a hard time living day to day, like the poor widow who gave everything see owned to the Lord. She trusted that God would provide for her.
God has chosen these folks that are despised and rejected by the rest of the world to confound the wise and mighty, those that exalt themselves.
It is not some unknown mystery of whom God chooses, he chooses those that place their faith in him. There are some rich and mighty that trust in God and are saved, but the vast majority are the poor, fatherless, and widows.
It has nothing to do with wealth, it is faith that matters.
Don't need to do so. Scripture tells us [repeating a couple]:
Acts 10:34. Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
Romans 2:11. For there is no respect of persons with God.
The nature of fallen mankind:
Romans 3:23. For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Ecclesiastes 7:20. For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.
Isaiah 64:6. But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away
And then there is this:
3. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4. According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5. Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6. To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
I suggest you take it up with God if you have a problem with these Scripture. A hint: These Scripture show why election is unconditional.
Ooh, Old Regular just made this thread verrrrry interesting. Several scriptures clearly saying God is not partial. Then Ephesians 1:5, which says God predestinated according to the good pleasure of his will.
Then there is entire chapter of Romans 9, where God clearly loved Jacob but not Esau; where he is the potter who prepares vessels of mercy and vessels of destruction; that it is not the result of who wills or runs; where God has mercy on whom he will and hardens whom he will.
I know, I know, some answer that Romans 9 tells of God's choice of the Jews (Jacob)--corporate election, not individual.
But Paul could just have easily have called God's chosen Israel instead of Jacob, as he did in Chapters 10 and 11.
In Chapter 11 Paul says some Jews will be saved, but God blinded the rest so they couldn't.
Anyway, just stirring the pot a bit.
At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this is what you were pleased to do.
5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding;
6 in all your ways submit to him,
and he will make your paths straight.[Or will direct your paths]
7 Do not be wise in your own eyes;
fear the Lord and shun evil.
The rich are wise in their own eyes; one who is poor and discerning sees how deluded they are.
I think if we look at the young rich ruler and Lazurus and see them as rich and poor in Spirit we might see why God has come to this.
1 Thessalonians 2:13
And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as a human word, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is indeed at work in you who believe. 14 For you, brothers and sisters, became imitators of God’s churches in Judea, which are in Christ Jesus: You suffered from your own people the same things those churches suffered from the Jews 15 who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out. They displease God and are hostile to everyone 16 in their effort to keep us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. In this way they always heap up their sins to the limit. The wrath of God has come upon them at last.[Or them fully]
It all depends on how you want to see thing, but to show no favoritism could be in fact saying all men are on equal ground concerning the Gospel and the reason God has hidden the truth from them is in fact found in the scriptures above.