Does GOD Still have Plans For Both SpiritualAnd Physical Israel?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by JesusFan, Mar 11, 2011.

  1. JesusFan

    JesusFan
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    IF one is a Dispy, than GOD has both plans for the Body of Christ, Spiritual Israel, and the Physical descendants of Abraham, the Jewish peoples...

    Is Heaven for the Church, and Millinium Kingom for Isreal 'In the flesh?"

    or are there now JUST one Isreal and plan, the Church?
     
  2. freeatlast

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    I am not sure what "dispy" is but according to scripture all Israel will be saved at some point. Not every Jew, but all Israel. So yes God has plans for them.
    I don't agree that the church is Spiritual Israel. The church is just that, the church, made up of all peoples Jew and gentile alike.

    About heaven and the church. Certainly for a time. As I understand it the church is to return with Christ to rule the 1000 years of Christ here on earth. There will be other nations on earth besides Israel during that time.
     
  3. Iconoclast

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    Jesus is the True Israel

    all saints for all time are In Jesus

    all saints are the Israel of God

    not two seperate people,but one new man In Christ eph2:11-16
     
  4. Ron Wood

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    :thumbs::thumbs:
     
  5. Iconoclast

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    Ron,
    We are mostly in agreement from what i see of many of your posts, that is what happens when you love the word. It gives you a common desire to obey and serve our King as he has revealed His will in His word!
     
  6. Old Union Brother

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    How can we believe anything else since the scriptures say:

    Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
     
  7. thomas15

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    The answer to the OP question is yes assuming you define spiritual Israel as the Church

    The Bible defines Israel
    The Bible defines the Church
    The two words have different definitions
    They do not mean the same thing


    That is of course unless if you let your theology dictate your ability to assign meaning to words or if you think Jehovah God is unable to give the writers of the Bible the ability to communicate clearly.
     
    #7 thomas15, Mar 12, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 12, 2011
  8. Iconoclast

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    Thomas,
    Which Israel do you mean?
    Jacob's name was changed to Israel
    The twelve tribes were called Israel
    the ten northern tribes were called Israel
    The servant of the Lord gathers Israel unto himself
    Israel was called God's firstborn son
    Jesus is the Israel of God
    The church is the Israel of God
     
  9. thomas15

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    According to Iconoclast, as noted above, Jesus (the second person of a triune God, thru whom all things that are created were created) is one and the same as the church (the body of believers of the person Jesus).

    Of course I know that this is not what he believes, but it is what he writes.

    The Bible has it this way...

    "And as for all who walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God." Galatians 6:16 ESV.

    It would never be considered proper for those who let their theology dictate their comprehension of the words of the Bible that St. Paul is talking about two different groups of people, one is all believers (all who walk by this rule) and jewish believers (and upon the Israel of God). No, the coma/conjunction ", and" in this verse is a translation mistake and has no meaning, according to some.

    Personally, I believe the Bible teaches that Jesus is God. Why and for what purpose would Paul tell us the he (Jesus) is the Israel of himself?
     
  10. canadyjd

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    Acts 9:1-2 "Now Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest, (2) and asked for letters from him to the synagogues at Damascus, so that if he found any belonging to the Way, both men and women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem."

    This is a description of Saul (Paul) persecuting the church.

    Acts 9:4-5 "and he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, 'Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?' (5) And he said, 'Who art thou, Lord?' And He said, "I am Jesus whom you are persecuting,"

    So, Jesus Himself claims that persecuting the Church is the same as persecuting Him.

    Col.1:24 "Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I do my share on behalf of His body (which is the church) in filling up that which is lacking in Christ's afllictions...."

    So, here Paul says that Christ's body is the church.

    So, I think it is clear what Iconoclast is saying. I did not take him to mean that Jesus and the church are one and the same, as you have stated.

    There is, however, some spiritual representation between the church and Christ, which is attested to by both Jesus and Paul (under inspiration of scripture). In a similar way, the church (made up of both Jew and Gentile) is the "Israel of God".

    peace to you:praying:
     
  11. Iconoclast

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    Thomas,
    Sorry if I was not as clear as I should be.
    The scripture speaks of the church this way;
    Thomas, who is the servant here in ISA49? An individual,or the nation?
    who is spoken of in verse3?
    What about verse 6?
    Thomas, God alone is God. And yet we are in union with Him by Spirit baptism.
    Jesus prays this for us in Jn.17
    When Saul persecuted the church Jesus asked,why do you persecute ME



     
  12. thomas15

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    Appology accepted.
     
  13. savedbymercy

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    They that are of Faith are The True Israel of God

    Jesus made a statement to those [Jews] who were naturally born to Abraham, however what Jesus says to them indicates that they are not Abraham' Children. Jn 8:

    37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed[according to physical birth]; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

    Now, here Jesus acknowledges these being Abraham's seed, or offspring naturally.

    But immediatetly after He denies they are Abraham's Children vs 39


    39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

    So figure, Jesus states to natural born jews that they are not Abraham's Children.

    The work Here that these jews lacked that would Truly Identify them as Children of Abraham, is the work of Faith. Abraham is the True Father of All who walk by His [example] of Faith.

    rom 4:

    12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

    gal 3:8-9

    Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

    So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
     
  14. Osage Bluestem

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    I believe that the church began with remnant Jews and gentiles have been grafted in. National Israel will eventually come to faith in Christ. Christ will reign on earth from Jerusalem.

    Here is an excellant article on this topic: http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Articles/Israel/israel.html
     
  15. thomas15

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    My observation:

    One of the reasons I tend to stay away from reformed theology is when it comes right down to it, the standard for orthodoxy is the WCF or some other document rather than the clear teaching of the Bible.

    When someone in the reformed camp sets his/her mind to expand their horizons and understand non-reformed viewpoints (i.e.: dispensationalism) and as a result asks another person in the reformed camp for advice on study resources, the answer is almost without exception a resource on the subject from within the reformed perspective. Many times on this forum I have commented on this practice. You will hardly ever hear from a Covenant believer "if you desire information on the thinking of Ryrie, read Ryrie".

    As a result, even those who profess decades of adherence to a system such as dispensationalism but are now enlightened and thus in the reformed camp seem to misrepresent dispensational teaching on even major points, such as Mat ch 24 & 25.

    But to each his own.
     
  16. savedbymercy

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    For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel ! -



    That Paul realized Two distinct Israels cannot be denied ! It should be duly noted that the first time the name Israel appears in scripture is in Gen 32:28

    28And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.

    Where it is applied to Jacob, it gives the significance it was not his name by nature, but by grace, hence Israel points to Jacob as a born again man, giving the indication that the name Israel in its primary pertains to the spiritual seed of Abraham and not his natural descendants. As time went on Israel took on a double meaning and would be used to designate Abraham's natural offspring as well as His Spiritual. But it still was recognized as the Spiritual seed i.e Ps 73:1

    1Truly God is good to Israel, even to such as are of a clean heart.

    Now who are the ones being referred to here as Israel ? Surely its not the corrupt physical nation of Israel, to Abraham's fleshly descendants who existed when the psalm was written, for its doubtful if any of them was of a clean heart Ps 12:1. Now a clean heart is one that has been cleansed by the blood of Christ,its a new heart, one of Covenant Mercy Ezk 36:26 " A new heart also will I give you" see Ps 51:10

    So the second clause of Ps 73:1 would give us to understand the First clause Israel as Spiritual Israel, God's chosen and redeemed People.
     
  17. JesusFan

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    It all depends on IF one tends to see the Church as being the Spiritual isreal for today, the fulfillment of His promises made to the Jewish nation under the Old Testament/Covenent...

    believe that the Church was NOT forseen in the OT by the prophets though, it was/is a "new revealtion" given to Apostles, especially Paul, where in Chrsit is 1 body of jews and Gentiles, but that is NOT the Isreal of God, it is the Church...

    Church has a heavenly Kingdom, Isreal will have a time of Messiah, Jesus, ruling over House of isreal, at that time will the jewish nation be reborn as in a day, and ALL Isreal of that time shall indeed be saved!
     
  18. Iconoclast

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    This post betrays the fact that you are not at all familiar with reformed or covenant theology at all. Any of them are more than familiar with any dispensational writer....quote them ....and show where they depart from scripture.

    This alone shows an ignorance of these documents. All of them start with a description of the Holy Scriptures alone, as a rule for faith and practice.

    Many times a person who ridicules and bears false witness against godly men from times past,does so because they cannot even begin to enter in to the writing and teaching of the scripture that these men have offered in times past.

    This idea of "rather than the clear teaching of the bible".....is offensive in that it presupposes that the person claiming that they have this clear teaching,is saying that all others have missed what they themselves now claim as truth.
     
  19. JesusFan

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    Do you have a list of where they have "departed" from the Bible though?

    And isn't it due to how the reformed see the scriptures as being laid out as contrasted to Dispy?

    And he is right about the confessions with the reformed, as it does seem that at times they tend to filter the Bible through the confessonal creeds, that they will see if Bible was right, not letting Bible be the filtering and final say!
     
  20. Iconoclast

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    Wrong completely..... I will let the confession answer you here:
    http://www.vor.org/truth/1689/1689bc01.html

    This also provides a partial answer to your Supposed "bapticosatals"....who are not really baptists.....but pentecostals/charasmatic.... more or less

    Have you ever read the confession of faith? it will help you see the L instead of being hung up on a wrong view of 1Jn 2:2:thumbsup:

    http://www.preteristarchive.com/StudyArchive/m/mauro-philip.html
     
    #20 Iconoclast, May 19, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: May 19, 2011

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