Does God want to stay hidden?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by xdisciplex, Jun 16, 2006.

  1. xdisciplex

    xdisciplex
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    Somebody at another christian forum linked to this site, which I would not recommend for christians which are not very firm in their faith.

    http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/


    I didn't really read it because it would only confuse me but this statement here caught my attention:

    Do you think this could be true? Actually I have thought the very same thing and I feel as if God voluntarily stays within certain barriers at least in my case. I often think about wether God even wants to do something for me which would absolutely prove without any doubt that he exists and then I ask myself what if God doesn't want to do this?
    The problem with this is that this thinking can totally limit yourself because this means that if I ask God to do something which could not also be a coincidence then he won't do it because God doesn't want to reveal himself and when you have this kind of thinking it's virtually impossible to have faith for real miracles because every time you pray for something which would be a real miracle you think "What if God doesn't want to reveal himself and wants to stay hidden?" :(
    This is exactly what I thought when I wanted the baptizm of the holy spirit and nothing happened. Already before I went to the pastor I had these thoughts in my mind and thought that if God did something like slaying me in the spirit then it would basically prove God. This is something which I couldn't deny. But then I thought what if God doesn't even want to do this, what if he wants to keep this state where you can basically always choose between God and coincidence to test my faith?
    This sucks big time. Once you have this mindset you can forget about having faith for something which would be a real miracle it simply doesn't work because all the time you have these thoughts and think that God doesn't even want to answer such a prayer. :tear:
     
  2. genesis12

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    Come on, dear friend. Go back and read every post I have sent to you. You received the Holy Spirit the precise moment that you received Christ as Savior. God doesn't hide. We drift in and out of fellowship through doubt, fear, misunderstanding and misapplication of scripture. WE hide.

    He'll never let you go!

    :thumbs:
     
  3. Revmitchell

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    Heb 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.
    Joh 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
    John 14:25-27 25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. 26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. 27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.
    Joh 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
     
  4. BobRyan

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    There is no escaping the fact that God is the "God who is distant". Adam and Eve were expelled from the Garden - and no longer walked with God as they did In the Garden.

    Today we do NOT have the pillar of fire by night and the cloud by day. Imagine having the Urim and Thumim on the priests breastplate that LIGHTS UP yes and NO for the various decisions from God!

    Imagine camping around the Most Holy Place with the fire of God inside - the very presence of God.

    But notice how much "CONSUMING of the Congregation" ALSO took place then that does not happen now? God says "I will draw near for JUDGMENT".

    You can not GO to God's very precense and expect to CLING to rebellion and half-way conversion the way we do today.

    And don't think that these examples are NOT fully embracing the Gospel. These Heb 11 saints were not under "ANOTHER Gospel". They were under the ONE Gospel where being born again WAS THE ONLY way in!

    "The Gospel was preached TO US just as it was TO THEM ALSO" Heb 4:1-2!

    The Gospel was preached TO ABRAHAM" Gal 3:7-8.

    They had NOT ONLY the New Birth (pre cross reminder of Christ to Nicodemus in John 3 shows this) BUT ALSO these powerful symbols of God's very presence. And with each one "came unnusual judgment".

    God says of the wicked "you did all these things and I was silent - you thought I was like you". Ps 50.

    God says that when they remained distant and clung to the idols of their rebellion - He was slow to do anything - but when "you come to the Prophet of the Lord to inquire of the Lord then I MYSELF will answer, I will judge you".

    In Exodus when Israel rebelled against God - God said to Moses "I will not go on with them lest I break out into the camp and destroy them for they are rebellious" .

    So yes - there is separation today - and even though we come to God in salvation and are born again and we HAVE the opportunity spent hours with Him alone in worship, prayer, meditation, digesting the Word of God -- we "Choose not to" and living in that "distant compromise" God does not simply "barge in to do some judging". He remains distant and gives us time to choose to enter the path of "Closeness" or stay "remote".

    In the case of Christ and the Apostles we see "God near". But when Annanias and Saphira decide to do "a little compromising" with "God near" they are killed for BRINGING OFFERINGS to the church in the wrong manner!

    The Symbol of God's presence NEAR is both good news and bad news because you can not choose compromise AND choose God without immediate visible catastropic consequences the way you can with "God distant".

    If you really want visible powerful amazing answers to prayer you have to start off where you are and begin the "experiment" - asking for answers in every day life and listening when God answers - for with the answer often comes instruction.

    (see the book series "Incredible Answers to Prayer" by Roger Morneau http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0828013292/104-4716982-4501500?v=glance&n=283155)
     
    #4 BobRyan, Jun 17, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 17, 2006
  5. Eric B

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    This is basically what I have been coming to understand. And since even Ananias and sapphira were after Christ in the Church age, this to me further points to some sort of significance in AD70, and what the passages on perseverance to avoid judgment were pointing to.
    After the final destruction of the OT system of condemnation, we entered the full fruition of grace, where people are no longerjudged on the spot. God lives in us, so we are no longer like the Israelites following the cloud and being struck down at the least thing wrong. That is why this is not a 'two gospel' model.

    The downside, is that with no more physical miracles, websites like that, along with all the other mockers, anti-Intelligent Design, etc seem to have a stronger case. Then we are left to respond with personal experience (what God did for/said to me, What I got from reading His Word and prayer, etc), and many add claims of miracles, either emotional/spiritual healing or moral reform, ar some go as far as claiming to continue physical healing, with all sorts of extravagant claims gracing the airwves, books, and even Church fronts. None of this impresses the skeptical world.

    So this seems the best explanation for God's seeming hiddenness today.
     
  6. Clean1

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    God always answers prayer. He answers yes, no, maybe, or wait. Sometimes He allows things to happen so that He, through our suffering/trials, can win/draw others to Christ. Other times He allows things to strenghten us in our relationship with Him. He knows whats best for us even if it means we have to suffer a little.
     
  7. BobRyan

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    Nothing in the NT texts written prior to 70 AD indicates "we are not yet under the system of Grace".

    you can't just make it up
     
  8. xdisciplex

    xdisciplex
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    Hi!

    These typical answers don't really help me.
    I mean this "God always answers, he says either yes,no or wait" stuff. This way also a muslim can say "Allah answers ALL my prayers, he always says wait"....
    Come on. This is not what I'm talking about. Also having the holy spirit is something I don't really notice.This is something you either believe or not but it's not the case that I see the holy spirit or feel him. This is what I mean with hidden. God always stays in the mysterious realm. You can either say "God is near me" even if you don't feel anything or you can say "God is far away from me". But I am talking about real,tangible things.
    Or when christians say that we are already soooo close to God because we have the holy spirit, we cannot even get closer to God.
    I mean come on. Are you telling me that God cannot be more present than now? Are you telling me that what we have as christians today is like standing in the throne room or standing in the tabernacle? This has got to be a joke.
    You don't see the holy spirit, feel him or sense him in any way. Then I can as well say that I have 1000 invisible friends which are always around me. It's basically the same. How does it help me when God is there but at the same time he is not there? When God is there but I cannot feel him then it's the same as if he was not there, where is the difference? If you feel lonely and would like to feel loved and don't feel anything but all you can do is imagine that God is there then how does this help you? Sometimes you need something real, don't you? When you're hungry you eat something and you don't imagine eating something.

    I don't understand it. Why does God always have to stay in this realm where you either simply think that he is there or you simply let it be? Why does he do this? It's as if God enjoys not revealing himself. How can I say to non-christians that you can find God when I cannot even find God in the sense that I hear him or am able to really get in contact with him? And I really don't want to hear something like "But you have contact with him, you can pray to him" because this is not what I mean. This is like always leaving messages on the answering machine. It's a one-sided communication. Why do some christians really hear from God, and not only through the bible, and really get to know God this way while other christians don't have this at all?
    It's as if there are 2 classes of christians or as if only a small number of christians is chosen to experience these things. I mean God seems so apathetic. Atheists mock him and nothing happens, people sin and nothing happens, christians are killed and nothing happens. Sometimes you can really despair over this silence. It's as if your parents don't talk to you anymore and you don't even know what they are thinking or how you're doing. This sucks. You can never know if God is satisfied with you or not. Maybe you think you're doing well and God is totally unsatisfied. Or what also totally sucks is when you have to make really important decisions and you don't know what to do but you also cannot ask God because you don't hear him. These are situations where I ask myself why is it not even possible for christians to have the kind of relationship which Adam and Eve had with God? I mean we are cleansed through Jesus' blood. Then why isn't this possible? Walking around with God in the garden isn't really necessary, but being able to talk to God the way you talk to a real person and hearing him the way you hear a real person would be cool. Why isn't this possible?
     
    #8 xdisciplex, Jun 17, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 17, 2006
  9. webdog

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    You seem to be basing everything on "feelings" which are nothing more than a finite, human emotion. God does talk to us and communicate with us. He uses His Word, the Church, our family, friends and situations. If you can't see God's hand in day to day things, you need to start looking harder. God does answerer prayer in yes, no or not now. Just because you want immediate, visible results doesn't negate the fact that God is in control.
     
  10. Mishelly

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    My Father

    You can say my experiences are coincidence but I do not believe they are - On the day before the funeral for my father, Kelly, my niece-in-law was driving, Wendy, my sister, was in the back and I was in the passenger seat. Wendy and I both watched this pure white dove fly in front of us and watched it fly away to the heavens. Kelly thinks that Wendy and I both imagined it, Wendy found it creepy but I found it peaceful and beautiful. I say what a gift from God.

    A story behind the Lords Prayer: back in 1996 during the first surgery for Quadruple Bypass my Mother and a dear friend, Helen were sitting with Dad, he was so doped up and sick the only thing he could say was the Lords Prayer, while the three of them were praying a White Dove sat on the windowsill the entire time and when they finished it flew away. At one point the nurse came in and the Dove flew away, once the check up was done they began again and as they started the prayer the Dove came back on flew away once finished. How special one must be to get such a gift from God. My Father was a special man, I hope all feel that way about there fathers.

    There are others but these are two of the most special - God does prove His existence, some days it is in the beauty of life that gets overlooked, other days it is a miracle.
     
  11. xdisciplex

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    This is what I mean. Such experiences have to be cool. I also wish I would experience such things. But what do you do if you have had an experience and you think it was God but then you find yourself doubting this experience and thinking that it was a coincidence? This sucks. You want to believe that it was God and want to hold on to it but these doubts totally rob you of your joy, what do you do then?

    I remember once I was on my way to the bus and it started raining and I got so wet that I decided I had to go home. I stood there at the bus stop and was protected from the rain but since I had already gotten wet I knew I had to get home soon otherwise I would get a cold but I could not go home because it was raining so much. I stood there and it rained and rained. On this day I was already in a pretty bad mood. I thought about asking God to do something but I didn't dare to open my mouth because I thought what will I do if I ask God to stop the rain and nothing happens? Then my mood would have become even worse. I thought about this for a while but I really didn't dare opening my mouth and then the rain stopped. I don't think it stopped 100%, I think here and there a few drops were still falling down but it allowed me to go home. The whole time during my walk home, which took about 4-5 minutes, I was scared that it might start again and that everything was a coincidence but it lasted until I was home. I was really so happy. I mean such things are totally cool. It was like a direct communication between me and God. I thought something and he reacted. This is something you can look back to and always keep in mind. Such personal experiences are really worth a lot because it's personal. But what sucked is that it didn't take long and I was already struggling with doubts that this might just have a coincidence and I thought about it again and again and thought about how likely it was that the rain stopped and tried to prove to myself that it was not a coincidence. This sucks, when don't want to question it but at the same time you also cannot simply settle these thoughts.

    I also think that being thankful for personal things is easier than being thankful for what God did for all humans, but this is only emotional I think. But when God does something only for you then it's totally different than if God does something for all humans. For example if God healed a person then I could imagine that this person gets more emotions when it thinks about this healing than it gets when it thinks about Jesus dying for all humans. This doesn't mean that the healing was greater than Jesus' sacrifice. But the healing was more personal and also more tangible. The person experienced it first hand. But when Jesus was crucified the person wasn't there and saw it. It's strange but I have experienced it on myself. The personal experience is more satisfying to the part of us which craves for an experience. For example when you tell a person that Jesus loves her because he died for her then this person might not be too impressed because this seems so abstract, it's so hard to grasp. But when this person got healed by God then this is totally different because this isn't abstract and also not hard to grasp. And a personal experience also shows you that God really knows you and hears you. This is also worth a lot. I think there are christians which sometimes ask themselves wether God really knows them. Actually it's an irrational thought but sometimes you might have moments where you think something like this. A personal experience shows that God really cares about you personally. But when you think about Jesus dying for all mankind then you could also think "But what if he died rather for others and not so much for me?". I have had such thoughts and I bet other christians too. Or imagine you have 10 brothers and sisters and your father buys a present which is only for you then you'll appreciate this present much more because it was only for you.
    I simply think that personal experiences really show you that God loves you personally. When the bible says God loves us all then this is simply different. At least this is how I feel.
     
  12. Eric B

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    That is one of the weak points of that theory, but still, it does offer an explanation of why there were miracles, or even Ananias and Sapphira incidences in the NT, but not any longer some time after that. (Unless you want to accept RCC claims:tongue3:)
     
  13. Eric B

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    As for "Yes, no, maybe, not now", While I don't deny this could be true, I do think we have gotten too much into holding this up as our "proof" of God, even calling it "miracles", and then of course, as we just saw, denying "feelings" and "understanding".
    Religion has long been coming under fire for such diversionary tactics, when its leaders cannot give real answers. We were able to get away with it and keep the masses under their control in the past, but people today are fed up with it. Remember, the article said, among other things, "God never 'answers prayers' if there is no possibility of coincidence." If I understand this correctly, what he is saying is that all of the things we are calling "answers to prayer" and even "miracles" are things that can happen naturally, and in fact do happen, even to people who do not believe in God. Then, as we also saw, when someone is in pain, we just tell them "God is telling you 'no' or 'not now', and this is for your good" ("strenghten us in our relationship with Him", etc). I used to go through this, and when asking for a painful situation to be removed, it always just worked itself out, in its natural time, just as it had before I was a Christian, and for many other non-Christians no matter how long, or how much damage was being done in the meantime. Christians just coldly responded that it was good, and if damage was being done, it was because I wasn't "responding to it right" such as being thankful. When pressed enough for answers, some of these Christians even broke down and attributed it to "the way the world of sin is", and to me as a new Christian, it was very confusing. Is God doing all this; "allowing" it, or it's just life. I got all of this at different times.
    A person without much power will have a lot of things not go his way, Christian or non-Christian, while a person with power will have more things go his way, Christian or non-Christian. For that is the way the world has been allowed by God to be set up in this state of sin. Yet we are taught that if it doesn't go our way, it was God who said "no" or "not now", and if it does go one's way, then it was God who said "yes". Christian leaders with their money and power looked like they were getting their prayers answered (and attributed it as rewards for all their work), while apparenly, the less powerful needed more "character development" through trials and deferred prayers. When asked about rich ungodly people, then we are given the scriptures about how the ungodly prpsper, while the godly suffer (but what about the well-off christians who you said were getting their prayers answered for their faithfulness?) when the ungodly suffer, it is judgment for their sins, or just "the emptiness of not having Jesus in their lives". Of course, some of these people attibute our national tragedies as God's judgment for our supposedly turning from our 'godly roots", ignoring all the sin in the past.

    So basically God's name is plugged into every outcome to cast events in whichever way is convenient at the moment. Multimillion dollar teaching industries are thriving off of books, tapes, speaking engagements, etc. offering "the answers" to these "hard realities". Many come with extravagant claims of "miracles", and attached to the doctrine that God is inflicting pain for good, is the notion that is we "respond to it with a positive attitude, then that makes us grow", and is held up as "the power of God" by which we are "made like Christ". Problem is, non-believers can think positively and grow that way as well, so we think we're proving something to them, and what we're actually proving to them is their prior notion that Christianity is just a crutch, or "A way", rather than "THE way". (It sure enough sells, though!)
    Meanwhile, this backfires, especially in my circle (semi-charismatic IAOG's), where people claim God told them in prayer things like a cancer patient will be healed as he seems to be getting better (i.e. "yes"), but then when he dies, "oh, well, God said no. We just will never understand it until Heaven, but we'll have 'faith' that God did it for good". But this presumed an outcome, and then had to change when the situation changed.

    But in all of this, we have gotten away from the fact that the Holy Spirit is sufficient to cleanse us ("purging", "chastizing", "scourging", etc. is conviction, not bad circumstances). That is the "power" we have the world doesn't have. What we also have that the world doesn't have is salvation, and along with the "power of God" (the Holy Spirit) unto sanctification, and hopefully, the "peace" that comes from being out from under condemnation (This is what we "believe we have" or "claim" by "faith" even though it may not look like it)
    It seems we have gotten into expecting MORE than just that, (plus trying to maintain the continuity of the NT where we still see miracles) so that's why all the claims of miracles today. Most of the scriptures on suffering were about NT Christians suffering persecution at the hands of both the Temple system and the pagans. Many of us in the West are not going though this today, so in order for those scriptures to be fulfilled ("have meaning") in our lives, we have to plug in our daily disappointments and ongoing pain as the fulfillment, but it often doesn't fit. Some teachers claim a driver cutting you off at the intersection is such a "test" from God and/or Satan! It is a commonly used illustration, in fact!

    I address all of this, and the pertinent scriptures used in the teaching, here:
    http://members.aol.com/etb700/abundant.html

    I'm sorry again, xdisciple, that you have all these questions. It is very hard to find answers often, and you hear so many claims; whatever works best for the particular person. I have been feeling a bit burned out by some of the debates here, and people just believe what they want to, and even when you show them from the Bible, it still means this, and you're trying to deny that, etc. We just cannot decide on anything, and then here come the sects and Catholicism playing that to their advantage saying we should follow their "true Church", we wouldn't have these problems. I have to admit, we truly are a mess, and I understand why you have so many questions, even though some have gotten impatient with you. It's like we do not know what to do with ourselves, and all of us apparently have problems with faith, so we defelct questionaer's answers, or get impatient with them and just tell them "read the Bible" (when we cannot agree on what it teaches), or trump up all these claims of "miracles" and "intervention" in events that occur naturally. (And of course, some fake supernatural miracles as well). But this is not what we see in the Bible.
    My prayer is that God will truny reveal Himself some way, or do something, because it really seems we are spiraling into oblivion sometimes.
     
    #13 Eric B, Jun 17, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 17, 2006
  14. Mishelly

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    I believe God answers all prayers period

    I was raised a Christian with parents who lived what they preached, I was fortunate

    My mother was not raised as an active Christian and only became active after meeting my father, for her she had the same questions as you. No shame in that. The decipeles knew and believed but they still had times where they could not heal and fell through the water standing with Christ. She still struggles from time to time due to bad experiences in life and with people who called themselves Christian stood in the church proclaiming their love of God. I heard in a song that "The greatest single cause of atheism in the world today Is Christians who acknowledge Jesus with their lips Then walk out the door and deny him by their lifestyle. That is what an unbelieving world simply finds unbelievable."

    Believing that God answers prayers is Faith, another Thread of yours :flower:

    I cannot give a good answer for you as I am still learning and growing, all I can do is pray you find the guidance and knowledge you need and want. As I pray for myself the same all the time

    There are a lot of times I wonder if He is listening, I know he is in my heart, but my head listens to much to the world :tear:
     
  15. BobRyan

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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by BobRyan
    Nothing in the NT texts written prior to 70 AD indicates "we are not yet under the system of Grace".

    you can't just make it up



    Define "Good" in that context.

    It is like saying "The Bible does not support this at all - but it makes for a good story if you like storytelling instead".

    And when we say "does not support" what we mean is -- try reading Romans AS IF that book is written at SOME OTHER time than the Gospel of Grace - the ONE Gospel!

    How about "Accepting the bible instead of story telling" - because "story telling" that does not fit the Bible IS the RCC model - not the sola Scriptura model!

    The BIBLE does not say that "you need to change the Gospel to explain the lack of faith and the apostacy of the Christian faith over time".

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  16. Eric B

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    It's not true that "the Bible does not support this AT ALL" (it's always "all or nothing" with you). There are scriptural questions that remain with the theory, but then there are many more questions that remain without it.

    The same thing could be said about your little theory you gave above, ("The Symbol of God's presence NEAR is both good news and bad news because you can not choose compromise AND choose God without immediate visible catastropic consequences the way you can with "God distant"), which is basically the same as what I said, but minus the AD70 reference. You didn't back that up with any scripture that says that God withdraws now because to be in His presence is "good and bad news" either. At least I gave a significant historical reason why God would withdraw after the age of the apostles.

    Another scripture I did forget to give which is pertinent is "to whom much is given, much is expected".
     
  17. BobRyan

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    The Bible does not "support at all" that which it directly contradicts. In this case the Bible explicitly CLAIMS that the saints are under Grace at the very time this "story telling" wants to insist THEY ARE NOT!

    How much more obvious can that be?

    The RCC can make the same case for Purgatory saying "well there are a few places where you might get by with inserting that idea into scripture" but the fact that scipture teaches in Christ an all-sufficient once-for-all sacrifice that ALONE atones for sin - creates a basic context of "direct contradiction" for that extra-Biblical idea of Purgatory. It is not just that we can not find its' explicit endorsement it is that in places we CLEARLY SEE it's explicit condemnation!

    Obviously.

    Actually "I was quoting scripture" when I pointed to GOD HIMSELF making that argument about "God DRAWING NEAR for judgment" and God being "FAR" resulting in long delayed judgment.

    So not only is my position an ENDORSEMENT of the text of scripture but ALSO there is no scripture DIRECTLY contradicting HIS Word on that point.

    Equivocating between that and the Bible-contradicting idea that "Romans is writtne OUTSIDE of the Gospel of Grace to saints NOT UNDER GRACE" is just a fallacy.

    I SHOW God making that VERY Point in Exodus and I reference His making it several times in the OT THEN I SHOW the point with Adam and Eve AND with Annanias and Saphira. So while you might argue "As with the words Trinity" that I do not show the very words as stated in the end - I show all the teaching that make up that point IN scripture!

    Your entire case is based NOT on what you find in the Bible but in using history as a "story telling" platform IN SPITE of the Bible contradiction to that story you are telling.

    This is a PRE-CROSS statement that shows no sign of "BEING ABOLISHED" at the cross OR in 70AD.

    Those who abolish God's Word at various points in history just out of "story telling" are taking a very dangerous non-sola-scriptura road!

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  18. xdisciplex

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    Hi everybody. :)

    Eric said a few interesting things.
    It also bothers me that somehow no matter what happens the christians always find a way to make it look as if everything is fine. I experienced EXACTLY the same thing in the house meeting where I go to. A sick person was prayed for. First of all they were all totally optimistic and prayed and did all kinds of things. They commanded and claimed the healing and so on. But then when the person died all were like: Well, it's better this way, who knows what would have happened if he had survived maybe he would have fallen off...

    Great....

    Or on another ocassion one person was preaching about christians getting everything from God they ask for. They talked the whole time about that you can get everything you ask for. Many minutes only about this and they all agreed. They didn't name any limitations or requirements. They only said you get everything you ask for because Jesus says it. But then in the end one of them added that if you don't get what you ask for then it wasn't God's will. lol. This is really funny. This way you can always say "God answers all my prayers" but he simply always says no. How ridiculous is this?
    If a muslim comes to you and asks you does God answer you prayers then it's totally clear what he means with "answer". Answer does not mean "no", answer means "yes". Why do christians simply twist everything? Is this some sort of protection mechanism to not get disappointed? I really think it's ridiculous when a christian says God answers ALL my prayers, sometimes he says yes sometimes maybe and sometimes no. I really can't take this seriously because this is not what I call answer. If you ask a person a question and the person does not respond then this also is not an answer. If God says no then he doesn't respond to the prayer, he doesn't grant it or do anything because of it, then why is this an answer? When did "no" become an answer?
    Think about it, if an atheist asks you if God answers your prayers then would you really dare coming up with this silly "Yes he answers ALL my prayers, he says yes, maybe and most of the time no" stuff? I don't think so. :(
     
  19. xdisciplex

    xdisciplex
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    But actually my main questions from the first post haven't really been answered. Somehow I feel as if discussing such things over the internet doesn't really work because the thread often goes into a totally different direction. This way work when you're sitting at a table and have an open discussion but it doesn't work on the internet. :(
     
  20. Eric B

    Eric B
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    You build your whole argument there on the premise that I said the saints were "not under grace". That is NOT what I said. I said the full fruition of grace. That is what they were looking forward to, and something was promised to come in their lifetimes. You take the examples in Exodus and Adam & Eve and Ananias & Sapphira to prove your point on God's withdrawing just like I do, so I'm not arguing against that. But the question is why were Ananias and sapphira still being struck down then, but that stopped happening afterward? That was my only point. What happened inbetween acts and now that caused God to "withdraw" compared to the quick judgment of those times?
    Gee, you always have to be on accuse mode. It gets very tiring discussing anything with you.

    xdisciple; I can feel for you. That is typical of the easy "pat answers" we are known for. Read my link above, that should further validate your concerns.
     

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