Does it Really Matter Who Wins in November?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by righteousdude2, Sep 25, 2012.

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Does It Really Matter to You Who Sits in the Oval Office?

  1. Yes, without a doubt...

    15 vote(s)
    65.2%
  2. Not at all...

    2 vote(s)
    8.7%
  3. It shouldn't matter, but it does...

    3 vote(s)
    13.0%
  4. I have to trust that God knows who and what is best for America...

    9 vote(s)
    39.1%
  5. There is a huge difference in the one who wins and loses///

    3 vote(s)
    13.0%
  6. No opinion...

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  7. Never gave it a thought...

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  8. If we truly trusted God for our leaders, we'd not be locked in this hateful partisanship...

    3 vote(s)
    13.0%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. righteousdude2

    righteousdude2
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    As a believer, we are supposed to be trusting God for everything, so will it really matter who wins in November? After all, the POTUS is mostly a figurehead in a government that is built upon the Separation of Powers Act, so the three branches: Judicial, Executive and Legislative are in place to provide a check-and-balance system that holds this country together and assures that no one branch gets out-of-control.

    Sure, there are a myriad of difference in the philosophies, style-of-leadership, and even social agendas, but should the Christian be as concerned as the two parties want us to be?

    Afterall, in a sense, all this pre-election hub-bub is nothing but wasted energy, meant to whip up each sides followers into a frenzy, that leaves the loser and their following already alienated from the person elected to fill the office over the next four years.

    I once heard that the winner of any election is going to face a large amount of animosity on behalf of those who didn't vote for that person. It's kind of like knowing that the day after you are elected, the number, or percent of the country who didn't vote for you are those who will not want to support and follow the winner. The winner has an uphill battle, and that is so unfortunate. :BangHead:

    Sort of like Romeny said, there is a certain portion of folks that will not budge on who they like and vote for. It is that group of die-hard followers who make up the division lines and feed into partisanship, and this partisanship is what separates this great nation and keeps it from moving forward as one that is united.

    Just thinkin'... :type:
     
  2. 12strings

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    No, it doesn't matter...America is sunk...but God's church will endure and prevail!
     
  3. Oldtimer

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    If our leaders truly trusted God, we'd not be locked in this hateful partisanship.
     
  4. Zaac

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    It's not just the leaders. It's also the folks who vote for them.

    But to righteousdudes' question, it will not matter. This is it. Obama will win because the country deserves him. God will give the remnant one more chance to put Him first. But the country must be destroyed so that the Anti-Christ can seize control and bring peace to the world.
     
  5. go2church

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    Leadership always matters. Thankfully we have the promise of God to work good regardless of who the leaders are or what they stand for. Might make it difficult or uncomfortable for Christians, but that is more the global norm so I guess in a way it would be a strange welcome to the party for American Christians.
     
  6. preachinjesus

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    Nope, it doesn't matter who wins or loses...we all will lose either way.

    Anytime we put faith or hope I'm secular leaders we fail to lose sight that they are all sinful people who will, inevitably, fail Gods people. When our church leaders partner and endorse these leaders they sully the Bride of Christ with the stink of secularization.

    Secular leaders will never accomplish the goals of God. They will never accomplish the heart of God's plan. They will never bring about the Kingdom of God.

    In the many experiments to bring the sacred and the secular together they have all failed. America isn't an experiment to do this.

    In this election both candidates offer nothing to the Church. That's fine, they don't have to. I don't have a religious lithmus test for public office.

    Politics is the definition of what the author of Ecclesiastes calls "emptiness." It is vapid pursuits of worldy adulation at the cost of the disciples' way.
     
  7. InTheLight

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    I don't know people that put "faith and hope" in politicians. Perhaps you know some, though.


    This is a strawman. Politicians are not out to accomplish the will of God. They are not out to bring about the Kingdom of God.

    I'd like to hear about two of these 'many experiments' to bring sacred and secular together. What are you speaking of?
     
  8. Arbo

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    Does it Really Matter Who Wins in November?

    Of course it does.
     
  9. preachinjesus

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    I know plenty of evangelicals who are putting their faith and hopes in politicians to accomplish the Kingdom of God. Zionism anyone?

    Well first of all, this isn't a strawman. In my logic seminar we covered forms of false argumentation, this isn't a strawman. When someone uses a strawman they set up the weakest portion of an argument, usually done in critique, as the major point of the argument. My point isn't a strawman.

    Many politicians set themselves up and use language to intricate they are agents of God to accomplish His plan. Many of our leaders in the Church have, and continue to, try to point out that if we support XYZ initiatives we can bring about God's will and ways to our culture. We've all seen it.

    Well there are plenty of examples. The most prominent is Calvin's Geneva.

    A second is the Catholic state in Carthage...or Hippo. If you desire more examples I can provide if I'l get a) a fair hearing and b) reasonable engagement. :)
     
  10. Alcott

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    While it actually matters not that much in any practical way, it can and does matter to most citizens to know that the temperament of the country is with us; or against us.

    With that being said, I think there are 2 elements of American voting behavior which are quite illogical. One is that in presidential elections, the economy and domestic affairs are the points of emphasis, which we can see by observing how much both (or all) campaigns make that their key message. But who is elected to the presidency makes a much greater difference in defense and foreign affairs. The other point is that citizen interest in elections goes from the 'top down;' IOW the national elections hold greater interest than state elections, which hold greater interest than local elections. For personal every-day involvement with the way we live, it should be the opposite.
     
  11. Berean

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    Will there be less babies killed? Will gay marriages decrease? Will we cut federal spending? And will health care improve or Obama Care be repealed?
    I say NO, Irregardless who is elected president.
     
  12. saturneptune

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    We have reached the bottom of the barrel in 2012 for a choice to lead this nation. We have a sitting President that crams immoral standards down our throats and actively pursues these ideals to be the law of the land. Aside from that is the insane foreign and domestic policies bankrupting this nation. Against him, we have a cult member, who claims to have done a turn around on gay rights and abortion since his term as governor. He is so unable to articulate ideas and show leadership that chances of him winning slip away daily. Under present conditions, I should have been able to win.

    The Lord is in control of human history, nations, and everything else in creation. No one has power except it comes from above. Why has the Lord given us these two? I can only guess. One is that they are a reflection of our national character. God is using them for judgement, or to reap what we sow as a natural consequence.

    The op asks, does it make a difference. Yes, under the standard of who does less damage. There was a time when both candidates had positive qualities. My conclusion is that the cult member will do less damage. Now isnt that a high standard for this great nation?
     
  13. InTheLight

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    Oh, OK. I thought you meant credible people....:tongue3:



    You got me there. I was looking for more contemporary examples involving democracy.
     
  14. ktn4eg

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    Yes, indeed, it DOES matter!

    Unfortunately, Americans in general, and many Baptists, etc., in particular, have been so conditioned to believe that the ONLY option a voter (be they identified as "Christian [e.g. Catholic, Protestant {w/subsets to include Liberal/'Progressive(?)' and/or so-called 'Fundamentalist'/'Evangelical' (as if, I suppose, to somehow infer that 'Fundamentists' are by their very nature NOT 'evangelical,' i.e., they don't believe in 'evangelizing' 'the world' as per Mt. 28:19-20, Mk. 16:15!!), etc.]}," or "non-Christian") is between one or the other so-called "Big" and/or "Major" parties---D or R.

    Theological differences aside ("We're voting for a President, not a Pastor!!"), at least one knows what the incumbent POTUS stands for on most of the major domestic and foreign policy issues.

    OTOH, for what does his "Big," "Major Party," candidate, MR, stand?

    Well, let's just look back at MR's positions over the past several years:

    On the matter of Pro-Choice vs. Pro-Life, for many years MR was very much Pro-Choice/Pro-Abortion (and, BTW, Proud of it!!) until it came time for him to run in the early GOP primary elections. Many (if not most) of them were held in majority Pro-Life/Anti-Abortion states.

    All the sudden MR changes his mind now and boldly proclaims: I'm Pro-Life/Anti-Abortion!!!


    "I was against it before I was for it"!! (Sorry, Bill Clinton!)

    Then there's the health care issue.

    When MR was MASS gov, he promoted a govt.-controlled system of health care for the citizens of MASS, pushed it through both houses of the MASS General Assembly, and, as MASS gov, signed it into law for the state of MASS!

    Our current POTUS, B Hussein O, thought that MR's concept of govt.-controlled health care was so great that he used it as a "template" to give us "Obama"care.

    Hmmm.

    Oh yes, wasn't it MR who just a few weeks ago said he'd not change much of what's in "Obama"care if elected POTUS?

    Why would he....after all, it was basically MR's idea anyway, wasn't it?!!?

    OK, what about foreign policy?

    Well, let's see.

    Many, if not a majority, of MR's foreign policy advisors are Council on Foreign Relations (CFR) members.

    What is the hallmark of a CFR member?

    For years, the CFR has stood for policies that are, by nature, very "anti-US," "pro-UN," "anti-American 'exceptionalism' (Whatever than means!)," and "pro-'US Interventionalist' when it comes to dealing with the internal affairs of other foreign nations such as Egypt, Iraq, Afghanistan, and Lybia.

    Maybe that's one reason MR wasn't so "fast and furious" to criticize our current POTUS when the Lybians burned our flag, protested and set fire to the US embassy, and KILLED the US Ambassador to Lybia!

    I guess, "We'll just have to wait till after MR is inaugurated to find out what he's real policies are like," won't we?!!?

    (Sorry, Nancy Pelosi!)

    Who one is "for" or "against" isn't my point.

    To me, BOTH B Hussien O AND M R are basically not that far apart from each other when it comes to the REAL issues!!!

    As it seems to me, "One just re-arranges the deck chairs on the Titanic a bit faster than the other"!!!

    What DID happen to the Titanic?

    Oh yeah, NOW I REMEMBER!!!

    Moreover, one needs to look at the position(s) of one's US House candidates as well as those of the position(s) of one's US Senate (if you're in one of the 16-17 states where there's an election for the US Senate).

    If one takes one's time to read Article I, Section 7 of the US Constitution (You HAVE read it, haven't you?), the 1st clause clearly states that it's the House that originates "All bills for raising Revenue," i.e., TAXES.

    You do know what the "track record" is for the candidate that you're supporting in this election cycle, don't you?

    Remember, the ENTIRE US HOUSE is up for election this November!!!

    Oh yes, then there's the US Senate. One third of the US Senate is also up for election this November.

    Article II, Section 2 of the US Constitution (You HAVE read it, haven't you?) grants to the US Senate the authority to, among other things, approve the appointment of all US federal judges (US Supreme Count and below).

    You do know what the "track record" is (if you live in one of the 16-17 states where US senators are up for election) for the one you're supporting for US senate, don't you?

    My point here is, we as citizens of this Republic (It's NOT a "democracy," yet, but it sure is getting to be one, and fast!), better take a hard look at these "other" candidates !!!

    "Well, I'm just not going to vote then!!!"

    If you don't vote at all, then, by default, you've voted for ABSOLUTELY THE WORST candidate for whatever office it is that you're NOT VOTING!!!





































    God, Bless America, land that I love! / Stand beside her, and guide her / Thru the night, with Your light from above!

    ---Irving Berlin, a Jew who came to America in the early 1900's and gave us these words to inspire the US during the dark days of WW2
     
    #14 ktn4eg, Sep 27, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 27, 2012
  15. Oldtimer

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    Sometimes it makes me want to cry and or SHOUT, when I hear "I'm not going to vote." How many have died to ensure that's one freedom that's still left to us, today? Vote! Vote left, right, straddle the fence, whatever suits your preferences better. Not necessarily the best possible, but the best of who's on the ballots.

    Those running for president aren't the only ones on the ballot. If your ballot is like ours, it's a long one. Candidates for numerous offices at local, state, and national level. If you don't speak your piece at the ballot box for local officials, then don't speak your piece at the way local government is run. If you don't like the politics of your local dog catcher VOTE for someone else. Make your opinion known about who you want (don't want) to evaluate your property for local taxes. Don't stay at home because you don't like who's at the top of the ticket. If you stay at home, don't complain about the next local tax increase or "fee" mandated by your local representatives. You let someone else choose them for you.

    There's not a lot I can do as an individual to change the course of government(s). That is except pray and vote.

    What will you tell Jesus, when you stand before Him in judgement, when He asks why you didn't vote when you had a choice between a pro-life and pro-choice candidate?
     
  16. ktn4eg

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    That was at least part of my point in posting what I did about MR.

    Here's some other things one might keep in one's mind:

    "The LESSER of the two evils" is still E - V - I - L , isn't he?

    But then you vote to "keep the 'same old garbage' in office, don't you?"

    As opposed to "'new' garbage," right?!!? Last time I checked, doesn't ANY "Garbage" STILL STINK?

    But, any 3d party candidate will LOSE!!

    Oh, I get it now!!: "It's not how you "play the game," but "it's whether or not you win or lose," right?!!?

    Remember, the GOP was once a 3d PARTY!!!

    Yes, their 1st POTUS candidate, John C. Fremont (a "war hero"), lost BIG TIME in the election to the DEMOCRAT James Buchanan.

    BUT, the next 5 GOP POTUS candidates in a row WON their respective POTUS elections (w/ some being re-elected to a 2d term!)!!!

    Of course, "y'all knew that, didn't y'all"?!!? :smilewinkgrin:
     
  17. Ed B

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    I am seriously struggling with how to vote for POTUS. I will not vote for President Obama and I am having a hard time voting for Mitt Romney. I have absolutely no confidence that a Mitt Romney presidency will result in any significant drop in abortions or a reversal of gay marriage or gay marriage relabeled as civil unions . I have been a Republican since I was old enough to vote but I am more and more convinced that Evangelical Christians are being played as fools by the GOP over issues that the party big cigars care little about. I fear abortion is now a red herring issue that he GOP uses only to guarantee they get our vote no matter who they throw out there as a candidate and no matter what other policies they espouse and then do nothing of significance to correct abortion while in control of government.


    In addition to the concerns about Mitt Romney's historic and well documented flip-flopping on policies, I have a real concern that putting a practicing Mormon in the White House will inevitably increase the prestige and influence of Mormonism and help it become more accepted and mainstream outside it base. It is a cult that paints itself as Christian and tries to come across as another part of the larger Evangelical family. They look and act a lot like Baptist sans the coffee but their Jesus is not our Jesus. It will result in an increase of new converts to Mormonism even from among Baptists laity, especially those who have not been sufficiently or effectively taught proper Biblical doctrine.

    I struggle with the idea of my vote for Mitt Romney helping them covert even on more person to their church. Perhaps in an odd way I would be less concerned if he were Hindu, because Hinduism does not market itself as Christian. Mormonism does and that is a lie.

    As Spurgeon said, "When presented with two evils, choose neither."
    This is what I am struggling with as I consider my vote for POTUS. I will vote down the ballot regardless.
     
  18. NaasPreacher (C4K)

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    I don't accept the presumption that Jesus is going to ask my why I didn't vote a certain way in a certain election.

    If I did I might have to ask myself 'What will you tell Jesus when He asks why you voted for someone who believed that Satan was my brother?'

    I am now committed to a 'no vote' option. It is till late to apply for an absentee ballot and I am at peace.
     
    #18 NaasPreacher (C4K), Oct 1, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 1, 2012
  19. Oldtimer

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    That's your choice -- your freedom -- to do as you wish.

    Over the last 100 years or so, those who profess to be Christians have been the majority of the population of this country. Has it been God's plan for this country to be in the mess that it's in or is it because Christians allowed it to happen?

    How many times, over all those years, have thousands of Christians stayed at home and allowed hundreds of others* make choices for them? How many thousands of Christians stayed silent when hundreds of voices were raised in support of what scriptures tell us is wrong?

    Where were those, in the body of Christ, when government approved an upside down cross in a jar of urine as "art"? Today, would the equivalent of that against others* be considered a hate crime and subject to penalty by the very same government?

    Since January 1, 2012, how many thousands of Christians stayed at home, instead of voting their convictions during the primaries? Our primary, in NC, is in May. Over the months leading up to our primary, I watched the better, IMO, Republican candidates picked off one by one. Watched the media target conservative candidates for removal from the running. At the same time, watched the rally for Romney grow. Primary by primary, state by state. By the time our primary election was held, it was all over, as the end result had been set in place by others*.

    Where were the true professing Christians who could have given me a true freedom of choice in May? Did they allow others* to remove the opportunity to cast a vote in support of a better, again IMO, candidate at the top of the ticket? Or, did they stay at home? Or, did those who voted, vote as sheep being led to slaughter? (All the reasons applicable to uninformed voters in these times.)

    Where will they be in November? Will they allow a handful of votes chose who will run their towns? Will they allow a few dozen votes determine the destiny of their county government? Maybe a few hundred votes will allow the status quo remain in their state governments? All because they don't like the choices at the top of the ticket.

    Is it the will of God or the lack of will of the Christian "majority" that's determining our fate in the immediate future?

    As long as our Lord gives me strength to do so, I will stand in opposition to condoning the murder of babies, sodomy, seducing the gullible into the slavery of entitlement, and more. That includes going to the polls in November and chosing the lesser of two evils. Not doing so condones others* who choose the greater.




    *others - those of no faith, those with non-Christian faith, and "Christians" in name only.
     
  20. Bob Alkire

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    To give you a view that I was taught at home and in church(Presbyterian) which was Calvinistic. My father came back from WWII with a total diastase for our government.
    At home and in church we were taught that all men should serve in the service, and I mean all. We were taught to stay out of the voting box as a lot were taught back then, because there isn't any answers in politics, only from God. Also don't work for the government.
    Spurgeon was open against us getting into politics from the Baptist side of a few years ago and MacArthur is not real big on it today, if I recall correctly.
    So service and voting does not always go hand in hand. I upset my father in many ways and voting was one of them, I did vote and still do but most of the time for president it is a third party man.
     

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