Does Man have a "Free" Will?

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Dr. Bob, Nov 24, 2001.

  1. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    29,402
    Likes Received:
    12
    Lots of the debate on the doctrines of grace center around this subject.

    Please define YOUR view of the will of unregenerated mankind. DON'T give it a label (like Calvin or Arminian or Apollos) or use a myriad of quotations. Just a paragraph or two.

    Start simple with "YES, unsaved man has a free will . . ." or "Yes, BUT . . . " Thanks for following some ground rules.
     
  2. HankD

    HankD
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    15,123
    Likes Received:
    319
    Yes, unregenerate man has free will to sin, but is totally powerless to seek or approach God in a manner pleasing to Him without His pro-active and direct intervention.


    HankD
     
  3. DocCas

    DocCas
    Expand Collapse
    Retired Staff

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2000
    Messages:
    4,103
    Likes Received:
    0
    Man's will is not free. The unregenerate man's will is in bondage to sin and cannot make the right choice. He will always choose wrong over right. The saved man's will is set at liberty to make the right choices, but making the right choice is conditioned on submitting to the grace of God in that decision. As he still has the old sin nature, he may still make a wrong choice, but he is free to make the right one, which the unregenerate is not.
     
  4. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 4, 2001
    Messages:
    21,763
    Likes Received:
    0
    I would say that man has a free will in the same sense that God does: Both can do anything that is 1) consistent with their nature and 2) Proper objects of their power. God is not "free" to do anything at all; however, we do not deny the freedom of God. Likewise man is not free to do anything at all. He can do everything which is consistent with his nature.
     
  5. John Wells

    John Wells
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2001
    Messages:
    2,568
    Likes Received:
    0
    Unregenerate man’s will is definitely not free. Because of man’s condition of total depravity, free will was forfeited through the Fall. The question is, did sinful man retain sufficient natural ability to enable him to truly repent? The corollary doctrine of total depravity is predestination. Because man is unable to make a positive move toward God as a result of his depravity, it was necessary for God to predestine certain ones to salvation. There are abundant scriptures that specifically address election, and predestination.
     
  6. swaimj

    swaimj
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/swaimj.gif>

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2000
    Messages:
    3,426
    Likes Received:
    0
    In their natural state, men do not seek God. However, when the gospel is preached, the Holy Spirit draws men to Christ so that a man can respond positively. That is why Paul says the gospel is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes. And that is why Paul used persuasion (an appeal to the intellect, the emotion and the will) when he preached.
     
  7. Aaron

    Aaron
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2000
    Messages:
    15,646
    Likes Received:
    223
    No, unsaved man does not have a free will. He has a will, certainly, but it is not free. He is in bondage to sin, as was said above. He is its slave.
     
  8. S. Baptist

    S. Baptist
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2001
    Messages:
    165
    Likes Received:
    0
    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dr. Bob Griffin:

    Please define YOUR view of the will of unregenerated mankind. DON'T give it a label (like Calvin or Arminian or Apollos) or use a myriad of quotations. Just a paragraph or two.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I think the board need to clarify "Exactly" which "free will" you are talking about, the one to
    "seek God" ( attend Church) or the one to "Chose God". (be saved)


    Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him:

    Salvation is a "circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit", (Ro 2:29) and that can't occur
    without the Spirit being present to "draw", but does a person have the "free will" to first seek
    God?



    The parable of the "Sower" tells us about ourselves.

    Mt 13:4 And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side,
    Mt 13:19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then
    cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which
    received seed by the way side.


    Mt 13:5 Some fell upon stony places,
    Mt 13:20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the
    word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
    21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution
    ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.


    Mt 13:7 And some fell among thorns;
    Mt 13:22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the
    care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh
    unfruitful.


    Mt 13:8 But other fell into good ground,
    Mt 13:23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and
    understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some
    sixty, some thirty.


    Two points I'd like to make,
    1. The "good ground" was prepared before the seed was planted, (person seeking God,
    attending Church)

    2. The seed was cast on "all ground", (not willing any should perish) but not all "ground"
    received it "into it's heart". (chose salvation)

    I think the scripture is abundantly clear, the reason the "SEED" does/doesn't find a place to
    grow is "man's will" , not God's.

    "LOVE" is a "FREE WILL" act of a person's Heart, It is a form of "Grace".

    When either Man or God is denied "Free Will", then "love" can't exit between them.

    Ro 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if
    it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
     
  9. Michael Wrenn

    Michael Wrenn
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    4,319
    Likes Received:
    0
    I marvel at how those who don't believe there is anything of God in man consistently ignore verses such as John 1:9 and Romans Chapter 2. In addition to humans' sinful nature, humans also have a natural religious inclination. I'll probably add more later.
     
  10. S. Baptist

    S. Baptist
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2001
    Messages:
    165
    Likes Received:
    0
    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by John Wells:
    Unregenerate man’s will is definitely not free. Because of man’s condition of total depravity, free will was forfeited through the Fall. The question is, did sinful man retain sufficient natural ability to enable him to truly repent? The corollary doctrine of total depravity is predestination. Because man is unable to make a positive move toward God as a result of his depravity, it was necessary for God to predestine certain ones to salvation. There are abundant scriptures that specifically address election, and predestination.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


    "total depravity"???

    I don't believe in "total depravity", Here's why.


    Pr 27:20 Hell and destruction are never full; so the eyes of man are never satisfied.

    There's "something" inside a person that can never be "satisfied" until they come to the Lord.

    It's a "void" that men try to fill with "wealth", "Power", "Drugs", "Sex", all the things of the world, BUT nothing of/in the world can fill it.

    Man may not recognize/realize this "void" exist until it is satisfied, but nevertheless it is a "characteristic" of all people.


    To suggest that man is "totally depraved" would "suggest" that this void doesn't exit and man can "satisfied" by the things of the world and without God.

    Being made in the "image of God", we are "empty" without God, and every person has a desire to fill that void by some means.

    "Total depravity" would suggest that man has no desire to return to God, but he does, it's just that man tries to fill his "emptyness" with the things of the world.

    I'd like for you, or anyone else, to show me a verse in the Bible that says some are "predestined" to Hell.
     
  11. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 4, 2001
    Messages:
    21,763
    Likes Received:
    0
    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by S. Baptist:
    I don't believe in "total depravity", Here's why.
    ... To suggest that man is "totally depraved" would "suggest" that this void doesn't exit and man can "satisfied" by the things of the world and without God.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


    You misunderstand total depravity. Total depravity does not assert that man is as bad as he could be. It asserts that every part of man is depraved. There is no part of man (including his will) that is not depraved. Using terms as they are commonly used will help. You should not make up your own definitions.

    As for your "void" it is true that all men have one. It is true that they are looking for something to fill it. However, they are not looking for God. Hence, Rom 3:10-12 is true: No one is seeking for the God of the Bible. They are looking for their own concept of God. To answer both yours and Micheal's point on this matter, the knowledge that everyone has of God explains why man makes their own God. They do not want to submit to the God of Scripture. They want a god in their image rather than a God in whose image they are.

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>"Total depravity" would suggest that man has no desire to return to God, but he does, it's just that man tries to fill his "emptyness" with the things of the world. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    No man has a desire to return to God. Just read Romans 3. You cannot simply do away with Scripture because you do not like what it teaches. They are looking for fulfillment in a variety of ways, as you mention. They are not looking for God until God draws them.

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I'd like for you, or anyone else, to show me a verse in the Bible that says some are "predestined" to Hell.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Romans 9:22-24 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.

    [ November 25, 2001: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]
     
  12. John Wells

    John Wells
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2001
    Messages:
    2,568
    Likes Received:
    0
    S. Baptist,

    You ignored Dr. Bob's "ground rules" from the get-go! See my new thread for your "one verse!"
     
  13. noburigama

    noburigama
    Expand Collapse
    Guest

    It may sound like a bit of a side-step, but cannot man have completely free will and God have complete sovereignty to predetermine/call? To us it seems like a logical fallacy, but God doesn't really have to operate under our rules of logic does he?
     
  14. Michael Wrenn

    Michael Wrenn
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    4,319
    Likes Received:
    0
    Larry,

    On the contrary, they are using what light they have. And you might apply that statement of yours to yourself: You can't do away with scripture because you don't like what it teaches.

    I understand what you're basing your belief on, but there is also scripture which supports my belief, as well.
     
  15. Brian

    Brian
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2001
    Messages:
    319
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yes man has free will. To both respond to the Holy Spirits 'drawing' and to seek God in the attempt to fill the 'void' we have before salvation. Man can also resist that drawing. To do so unto death is considered blaspheming and/or grieving the Holy Spirit.

    noburigama, No in fact to be God requires Him to be beyond our abilities in logic, thought and knowlage. Unless you know someone else who can speak things into being from void. :D
     
  16. noburigama

    noburigama
    Expand Collapse
    Guest

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> noburigama, No in fact to be God requires Him to be beyond our abilities in logic, thought and knowlage. Unless you know someone else who can speak things into being from void. :D[/QB]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    No, I don't think I know anyone who can do that [​IMG] For me the question of man's free will became irrelevant when it struck me that the seeming contradictions are so much smaller than God and that my ability to reason them out is limited by the rules in which I (we) have to operate. The Bible has no definitive answer to the question and man has been chewing on this forever - b/c there is no answer that we can comprehend. :eek:
     
  17. Brian

    Brian
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2001
    Messages:
    319
    Likes Received:
    0
    I just left a jot and tittle excersize that turned into this disscussion in another thread. It just amazes me that people go to such lengths to prove their point. Espcially when its this subject. do you freely accept Christ or not? I did and I know why. Some say that I made that choice because God wouldn't let me do otherwise. Some say that I could have made a different choice if I had wanted to. There are some who believe that if I really wanted to I could change my mind now and loose that very salvation.

    I guess the biggest question left in my mind is really what difference does it make why a person truly accepts salvation?
     
  18. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2001
    Messages:
    6,179
    Likes Received:
    226
    I came down from heaven not to do mine own will but the will of him that sent me and this is the Fathers will that has sent me of all the Father has given me I should lose nothing but raise it up again at the last
    day.

    Man has a free will weather to serve God or not in his daily walk with God. If he choses to serve God he will recieve Gods benefits and blessing as his faithful servant. If he choses not to he will recieve chastisement from his heavenly Father... All this happens in time... He has not the ability or will to obtain anything as far as his eternal salvation... Brother Glen [​IMG]
     
  19. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    29,402
    Likes Received:
    12
    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Brian:
    I guess the biggest question left in my mind is really what difference does it make why a person truly accepts salvation?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Brian, it will result in whether GOD gets the glory for salvation that is 100% His work start to finish, or whether MAN gets credit for doing a good work.

    And the overriding purpose of everything we do should be "doxological" - giving GOD the glory. Alone.

    100% God. 0% Bob.
     
  20. EPH 1:4

    EPH 1:4
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    127
    Likes Received:
    0
    Dr. Bob don't you really believe it is 50% God & 50% a preacher, a tract, a gospel song, reading the bible or a "soul winner"? Just wondering, Steve
     

Share This Page

Loading...