Does OSAS survive Galatians 5 and Matt 18?

Negative.

You know we believe that our faith willevidence good works, and that the lack of faith will evidence evil and no works.

It's all perspective.

I am trusting in Christ's finished work, and you are not.

I hope to persuade you that Christ is sufficient as the True High Priest to bring you into the presence of God.

The priest of the law could not could only bring you into a shadow of the true, and this will be as close as you get to Him if you continue in seeking after righteousness through the law.

 

Parable of the sower.

 

HP: Of a truth, the Calvinistic notion of a literal payment theory holds no corner on trusting in Christ’s finished work. The truth is that you have accepted a false notion of the atonement and have accepted a literal payment theory established by Calvinistic theologians. To deny the theories of Calvinism is not to deny the finished work of Christ, nor to fail to trust in the finished work of Christ. Your remark smacks of pure arrogance.
The truth is that you are placing faith in a Calvinistic ‘theory’ of the atonement and in doing so begging the question, assuming without proof that the literal payment theory is correct and all others are wrong. If you would like to establish your idea of the atonement as the ‘truth,’ your task needs to involve establishing it by Scripture, reason, truths of immutable justice etc, and not simply throw around arrogant and condescending remarks towards others that might just happen to disagree.

Darrell, you came on this list as a reasonable person with a kind approach to disagreement, or so it seemed to me. I am beginning to have a change of heart in regard to your approach with your most recent remarks.

 

What we are witnessing here is the attitude we have witnessed so often, an attitude not founded on a unbiased examination of the Word of God itself, but rather on founded on ideas we have so often heard, not only on this list but throughout the Church era, i.e., “its either my understanding of Scripture or God is a liar” or “it is either my theory or you are denying the truth.” Such remarks are often indicated when they simply assume that if one denies grace or the atonement from the theory they hold to, all others are automatically denying grace and the atonement by such disagreement. Rather than to establish their ideas by Scripture, or to objectively test their theories by an open and honest examination of the Word of God, such as Bob Ryan has been engaged in passages such as Romans 11, they spend their time begging the question and throwing insults at all that would oppose them. Rather to honestly examine Scriptures that might shed light on the error of the theories they hold to, their approach is simply to examine all such passages in the light of the presuppositions their theories assume without proof, such as OSAS. Rather than to seriously try to establish the truth by a serious study of the Word of God, they seem content to place their faith and eternal well being in the theories developed by men such as Augustine and Calvin, whether cognizant of that reality or not.

 

Darell C,

In response to my statement: "Working (ie making an effort) to keep something (so as not to lose it) is not the same thing as earning it (to begin with). For instance, I could receive a vast inheritence from a generous benefactor, which I in no way had any part in earning, yet squander it through poor decisions and reckless behavior."

You had said this:

Not quite. The actual keeping of salvation requires work, as in active effort on the part of the believer. This will involve:

(1)actively abiding in Christ (John 15:1-6, etc)--which is demonstrated by keeping His commandments (1 John 3:24) and is sustained by eating His flesh and drinking His blood (John 6:56)--so one doesn't get cut off as a branch from the Vine (Christ) and burned (John 15:6);

(2) continuing to actively stand by faith in God's goodness (Romans 11:18-22) (so as not to be cut off as the unbelieving Jews)

(3) holding fast one's confidence to the end (Heb 3:6, 14) and not to depart from the living God in an evil heart of unbelief (3:12) nor allowing oneself to become hardened through the deceitfulness of sin (3:13);

(4) diligently adding to one's faith: virtue, knowledge, self-control, patience, godliness, brotherly kindness, and love (2 Peter 1:5-7), so that one doesn't stumble (v 10), become neither barren nor unfruitful in his knowledge of Christ (v.8), makes one's calling and election sure (v.10) and to finally have an entrance supplied for him into Christ's kingdom (v.11);

etc--the NT abounds with many more examples.

At any rate, Paul the apostle wrote to the Galatians:
"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails for anything, but faith working through love." (Gal 5:6)
And of course, if we love God we will keep His commandments (John 14:15,21,23) and thus abide in His love (John 15:10; 1 John 3:24).

You see Paul would agree with James that a faith without works is dead (James 2:17,26) and cannot avail for salvation (2:14-26). In fact, Paul wrote to the Romans that God renders to each according to his deeds (Romans 2:6) including eternal life to those who work what is good (Romans 2:7).

This of course agrees with Christ who said that those who have done good will come forth to the resurrection of life (and those who have done evil to the resurrection of condemnation) John 5:28-29.

Absolutely not. The Apostle Paul wrote to the Philippians:
"Work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you both to will and to do His good pleasure."

It is only because God "works in" us that we can "work out" our salvation.
Yet, this is still something we must do with "fear and trembling", and else where Paul wrote that those who believe in God should be careful to maintain good works (ie this is something that takes effort and not something that happens to us passively or automatically) so that they may not be unfruitful (Titus 3:8,14).

Likewise, Christ who commanded His disciples to abide so they can bear much fruit said that without Him they can do nothing (John 15:5). It's only in Christ that we can bear fruit, but we are the ones that must abide.

Also, we can only diligent add to our faith virtue, knowledge, self-control, patient, godliness, brotherly kindness, and love (2 Peter 1:5-7) because God's divine power first gave to us all things that pertain to life and godliness through the knowledge of Him (2 Peter 1:3).

 

In defense of the OSAS crowd, consider the parable of the seeds, particularly the two types that took root; however, one type didn't hold.

Add in James, where it's mentioned that even the devils believe, and tremble...but we all know the devils have no place in Heaven.

Then compare with Hebrews 10:38-39, where we are again reminded there are two types of believers.

When it comes to salvation, the most powerful verse I personally know is Hebrews 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

The type of seed that takes root, seems to grow for a little while, but then falls away - didn't have any real grounding; i.e., salvation wasn't in place.

Lot's wife, the rich young ruler - both looked back at what they had with regret, revealing that their hearts were still with the things of the world and not with God.

When you believe to the saving of your soul, that, my friends, is Faith. And it is faith that saves; not merely believing.

The passages presented as evidence against OSAS are an indication of a lack of believing, and are addressed in the parable of the seeds and Hebrews 10:38-39. I will not deny in any way that people stop believing; but I humbly submit that they didn't believe to the saving of their soul, and were not saved to begin with.

Folks, it is my be-it-ever-so-humble opinion that is where this discussion should center: Where in the scripture does it talk about being able to lose your faith?

 

Don, it might not say it in the exact same words as you use, but the notion is clearly set forth in Scripture that one can indeed start the race well, but it is not over until we reach the goal. One can start with clear belief but that belief in the end could prove to be vain. If one fails to persevere until the end in obedience and love towards God and man, our faith/belief we once knew will prove to be in vain. Here is one such passage that would indicate that 'possibilty.'
1Co 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

 

Hi Bob,

Of the four seeds, only one produces fruit (Matt. 13:1-23).

Granted, the bible does speak of "evil fruit", but in this passage there is
the contrast of where the word of God takes root and produces fruit, and where it does not.

To suppose that only those who become saved receive the word will not stand up.

All those in this parable are "lost" to begin with, and the fourth only are "saved."

Hear the explanation of Jesus (though I know you know this).


hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

Matthew 13-

18Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.

19When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

Can one be saved and not understand the word of the kingdom?

20But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;

21Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

Is falling away evidence of salvation? Isn't it rather, "enduring to end", as many in Hebrews 11 did, evidence that one is truly saved?

22He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.

While I would agree it is possible for Christians to get sidetracked, this again would seem to indicate one who received the word but again, the word (seed) doesn't have lasting value. Can that be true of the word? This would mean God does not finish the work He begins in the life of believers.

23But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

This last ground which the word falls onto is more in keeping with what we would expect the word to accomplish...for those who receive it understanding what the word represents (the gospel of the kingdom), that, in these last days, God has spoken unto us by His Son and the message of salvation through His name.

And that true salvation will evidence fruit.

Notice v. 14, 15:

14And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

For these the word is unfruitful.

15For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

This is who is spoken of in Hebrews 5:11-6:12.


God bless.

 

Duly noted.

That did seem to be an unkind remark. Forgive me.

I am not questioning your salvation, but your doctrine.

Which, I trust, we can explore (without staying on the same verses).

God bless.

p.s.-adding by way of editing:

I am not familiar with Calvinism, though I am aware of the basics.

My doctrine is (at least I think it is) is through personal study.

 

See what Dale C wrote about bearing fruit.

Exactly. Head knowledge vs. heart knowledge.

What unshakeable belief do you have, Bob? That the sun will rise tomorrow morning? What's that belief based on? Is it just head knowledge? Or is it something you *know* will happen, no matter what you do about it?

"PURE" sons of God? Where is that in the scripture?