Does Revelation 7 mention christians being killed and persecuted during the trib?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by xdisciplex, Oct 23, 2006.

  1. xdisciplex

    xdisciplex
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    Does anybody know if this is correct? Because if this is correct then this would basically mean that there is no pre-trib rapture which would not be good news.
    Why should God allow his people to be slaughtered in thousands when he could simply beam them up? :confused:
     
  2. dispen4ever

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    The rapture is a fact. During the tribulation persons will be given the opportunity to accept Christ, through the ministry of the 144,000. Many will. They will then be martyred for their faith. The end result is Heaven, no matter how one gets there.
     
  3. SBCPreacher

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    "Does Revelation 7 mention christians being killed and persecuted during the trib?"

    It seems to me that the short answer is read Revelation 7 - what does it say? Sometimes it's just that simple.

    Don't wait around for the rapture to happen and the tribulation to begin to be sure of where you stand with Christ.
     
    #3 SBCPreacher, Oct 23, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 23, 2006
  4. tragic_pizza

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    Is a pre-trib rapture absolutely neccesary for you to have faith in Christ?
     
  5. dispen4ever

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    What a question. I'm trying to think of a short description. Oxymoron? Mixing metaphores?

    No, it isn't. Faith is. Even the faith to believe comes from Him. One who is walking in that faith becomes aware of the rapture of the saints. That is a cause for rejoicing.
     
  6. DeafPosttrib

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    Disp pretribs intepreting Revelation 7 talking about 144,000 shall evangelize the gospel over the world after the rapture.

    That is misintepreting.

    Revelation 7 tells us, 144,000 shall NOT be sealed till after 6th seal broken(Rev. 6:12-15) that is AFTER the tribulation same with Matt 24:29-31.

    Revelation 7 say nothing anything that God given instruction to 144,000 what shall be to do. It tells us, that they shall be 'sealed'. These are not always "Jews", also, they are saints. Rev. 7:9-17 explain more clear these are God's people, multitude shall be appear before the throne of God is the picture of rapture at the end of tribulation, not at the beginning of so called, "seven year of tribulation period".

    Also, Revelation chapter 14 explaining more clear on Revelation 7 about the identify of 144,000, who they are. They are God's servants, and they are pure and redeemed from the world, that mean they are God's saints, both Jews and Gentiles.

    Later I will discuss more deep on Revelation 7 and 14.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  7. tragic_pizza

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    It was a valid question. Note I was not talking about a rapture per se, but the absolute lockstep doctrinal necessity many Fundamentalists hold for a pretribulation rapture. And it's spelled "metaphors," not "metaphores." If you're going to mock a question, mock it properly.
     
  8. Inquiring Mind

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    Maybe you should read some Old Testament stuff. God has always allowed and in some cases caused his people to be slaughtered by the Thousands.

    Why should pre-trib Christians be spared the Great Tribulation? They have never been spared other Tribulations that have occured over the course of time after the Ascension of Christ.

    If New Christians created durig the Great Tribulation can go thru the Great Tribulation then why not pre-trib Christians?

    Somebody has to give the initial word to the 144,000 unless you believe they are going to spontaneously become christians....
     
  9. Inquiring Mind

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    Revelations 7

    An interlude of two visions precedes the breaking of the seventh seal, just as two more will separate the sixth and seventh trumpets (Rev 10). In the first vision (Rev 7:1-8), the elect receive the seal of the living God as protection against the coming cataclysm; cf Rev 14:1; Ezekiel 9:4-6; 2 Cor 1:22; Eph 1:13; 4:30. The second vision (Rev 7:9-17) portrays the faithful Christians before God's throne to encourage those on earth to persevere to the end, even to death.

    1 After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth so that no wind could blow on land or sea or against any tree. The four corners of the earth: the earth is seen as a table or rectangular surface

    2 Then I saw another angel come up from the East, holding the seal of the living God. He cried out in a loud voice to the four angels who were given power to damage the land and the sea, East: literally, "rising of the sun." The east was considered the source of light and the place of paradise (Genesis 2:8). Seal: whatever was marked by the impression of one's signet ring belonged to that person and was under his protection.


    3 "Do not damage the land or the sea or the trees until we put the seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God."

    4 I heard the number of those who had been marked with the seal, one hundred and forty-four thousand marked from every tribe of the Israelites:
    5 twelve thousand were marked from the tribe of Judah, twelve thousand from the tribe of Reuben, twelve thousand from the tribe of Gad,
    6 twelve thousand from the tribe of Asher, twelve thousand from the tribe of Naphtali, twelve thousand from the tribe of Manasseh,
    7 twelve thousand from the tribe of Simeon, twelve thousand from the tribe of Levi, twelve thousand from the tribe of Issachar,
    8 twelve thousand from the tribe of Zebulun, twelve thousand from the tribe of Joseph, and twelve thousand were marked from the tribe of Benjamin.
    One hundred and forty-four thousand: the square of twelve (the number of Israel's tribes) multiplied by a thousand, symbolic of the new Israel (cf Rev 14:1-5; Gal 6:16; James 1:1) that embraces people from every nation, race, people, and tongue (Rev 7:9). Judah is placed first because of Christ; cf "the Lion of the tribe of Judah" (Rev 5:5). Dan is omitted because of a later tradition that the antichrist would arise from it.

    9 After this I had a vision of a great multitude, which no one could count, from every nation, race, people, and tongue. They stood before the throne and before the Lamb, wearing white robes and holding palm branches 6 in their hands. White robes . . . palm branches: symbols of joy and victory; see the note on Rev 3:5.

    10 They cried out in a loud voice: "Salvation comes from our God, who is seated on the throne, and from the Lamb." Salvation comes from: literally, "(let) salvation (be ascribed) to." A similar hymn of praise is found at the fall of the dragon (Rev 12:10) and of Babylon (Rev 19:1).

    11 All the angels stood around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They prostrated themselves before the throne, worshiped God,
    and exclaimed: "Amen. Blessing and glory, wisdom and thanksgiving, honor, power, and might be to our God forever and ever. Amen."

    13 Then one of the elders spoke up and said to me, "Who are these wearing white robes, and where did they come from?"

    14 I said to him, "My lord, you are the one who knows." He said to me, "These are the ones who have survived the time of great distress; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Time of great distress: fierce persecution by the Romans;

    15 "For this reason they stand before God's throne and worship him day and night in his temple. The one who sits on the throne will shelter them.


    16 They will not hunger or thirst anymore, nor will the sun or any heat strike them.

    17 For the Lamb who is in the center of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to springs of life-giving water, and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes." Life-giving water: literally, "the water of life," God's grace, which flows from Christ; cf Rev 21:6; 22:1, 17; John
     
  10. tragic_pizza

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    Pretty decisive Scriptural evidence, I'd say, IM.
     
  11. Ed Edwards

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    No. If it was you would read in your KJV1611 Edition:


    Romans 10:9 (PTOV = Pre-Trib Only Version)
    That if thou shalt confesse with thy mouth the Lord Iesus,
    and shalt beleeue in thine heart, that God
    hath raised him from the dead, and beleeue in
    thine heart that the
    pretribulation rapture is THE WAY God will do it
    ;
    then thou shalt be saued.

    Rev 7:9-14 (KJV1611 Edition):
    After this I beheld, and lo, a great multitude, which no man could nuber,
    of all nations, and kindreds, and people, & tongues,
    stood before the throne, & before the Lamb, clothed with white robes,
    and palmes in their hands:
    10 And cryed with a loude voice, saying, Saluation to our God,
    which sitteth vpon the Throne, and vnto the Lambe.
    11 And all the Angels stood round about the Throne,
    and about the Elders, and the foure beasts,
    and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
    12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glorie, and wisedome,
    and thankesgiuing, and honour, & power,
    and might be vnto our God for euer & euer, Amen.
    13 And one of the Elders answered, saying vnto mee,
    What are these which are arayed in white robes? and whence came they?
    14 And I said vnto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me,
    These are they which came out of great tribulation,
    and haue washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lambe.


    I've run surveys before to see how many of the 2,000 Million
    people on earth today are REAL Christians (on God's list).
    The range of answers has a numerical average about 180 Million.
    180 Million is just under 10%.

    Revelation 9:16 mentions a number of 200 Million.
    If all the real Christians now went into tribulation and if
    they are 180 Million strong; then Revelation aught to mention
    their number. So I'm wondering why it says "no man could number
    them"?

    (No, I don't REALLY think that no man could number them
    but a WOMAN could number them???)

    I believe then that these multitude of saints where those
    raptured & resurrected at the Pretribulation resurrection/rapture..

    THE ALMANAC OF THE CHRISTIAN WORLD, 1991-1992
    on page 502 quotes the OUR GLOVE AND HOW TO REACH
    IT (Foreign Mission Board of the SBC, 1990):

    From 33AD to 1990AD
    34,903 million people have been born
    8,286 million people have been called 'Christian' (24%)

    How many of them are REAL Christians (God's list)
    we don't know. But if it were about 10%, then there
    would be about 800 Million around the throne.

    (Some say I should count also the saved Jews under
    the Old Covenent, but I suspect even though
    it was 1,000 years from King David to Jesus, there
    are less than 30 Million such persons. 30 Million
    is way less than the error of knowing how many
    nominal Christians were REAL Christians.
    If there were 4,000 Million REAL Christians that
    would be less than half the nominal Christians
    and what Christ said about the narrow path would
    still be valid. So somewhere between 80 Million
    and 4,000 Million Real Saved folks isn't going to
    be bothered much by some 30 Million OT saints).

    I believe then that these multitude of saints where those
    raptured & resurrected at the Pretribulation resurrection/rapture
    who 'came out' of great tribulation by being taken to heaven
    before the Tribualtion Period begins.
     
  12. Ed Edwards

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    DeafPosttrib: //Disp pretribs intepreting Revelation 7 talking
    about 144,000 shall evangelize the gospel over the world after the rapture.

    That is misintepreting. //

    That is actually your own misunderstanding of the teaching
    of dispensational 'pretribulation' rapturists, 'premillinnial Second
    Coming of Jesus'ists.

    The Tribualtion Period of 7 years is all about God winning
    a maximum number of Jews to Himself.
    The 144,000 shall evangelize the Jews only.

    I'm pretty much with the group that says there is no
    Second change for Gentiles. Well, salvation for Gentiles
    in the Tribualtion period will be possible (and some might
    even be saved - by having their heads lifted upon initially
    declaring "Jesus is Lord". But many won't do that
    according to

    Rev 9:20-21 (KJV1611 Edition):
    And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues,
    yet repented not of the works of their hands,
    that they should not worship deuils, and idoles of golde,
    and siluer, and brasse, and stone, and of wood,
    which neither can see, nor heare, nor walke:
    21 Neither repented they of their murders,
    nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

    Advice: If you are a Gentile don't bet your eternal soul on
    the rapture occuring & then you get saved. There is a time
    for all humans when God will quit trying to save them.
    Today is the only time you can be sure you can be saved.
     
  13. Ed Edwards

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    The Tribulation period is NOT about Christians but
    about Jews (Israeli). The Christian born-again elect saints of the
    Church Age will be GONE.

    Inquiring Mind: // Why should pre-trib Christians be spared the Great Tribulation?//

    Bad question. The Tribualtion isn't about Christians,
    The Tribulation is about Isareli Jews.
    Nobody is WORTHY of being raptured.

    Luke 21:36 (KJV1611 Edition):
    Watch ye therefore, and pray alwayes,
    that ye may be accompted worthy to escape
    all these things that shall come to passe,
    and to stand before the sonne of man.

    [FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Luke 21:36 (KJV1769 Edition):
    Watch ye therefore, and pray always,
    that ye may be accounted worthy to escape
    all these things that shall come to pass,
    and to stand before the Son of man.
    [/FONT]

    'Accounted worthy' doesn't mean worthy, it means
    put on the books as though 'worthy'.
    Sorry, but none of us are worthy of being raptured
    before the Tribuation Period. So God won't be
    having His Pretribulation Rapture/resurrection for
    our purposes but for His.
     
  14. EdSutton

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    How's about this? :rolleyes: :eek: :tongue3: :laugh:

    Will that work? {laugh} {laugh} }hgual{

    I'se a-laughing so hard, I even got my last laugh all turned around "backards".

    Ed
     
  15. tragic_pizza

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    meh.

    I'd pay more attention to my own eschatology were I you. Considering that John wrote Revelation to churches not in Jewish territories, your assertion that the tribulation applies only to Jewish people is, well, suspect to say the least.
     
  16. Inquiring Mind

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    ye may be accounted worthy2661

    G2661
    καταξιόω
    kataxioō
    kat-ax-ee-o'-o
    From G2596 and G515; to deem entirely deserving: - (ac-) count worthy

    In an earlier verse Jesus tells us we will witness these events. Now if want to say that Jesus is talking only to the Apostles and he is promising the Apostles they will see it then the Great Tribulation occured during the first century when the Priests were killed and Temple was destroyed in 70 AD and the subsequent persecution of Christians under Nero.

    Luke 21:31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.


    I doubt anyone is really deemed entirely deserving, after all, we are all sinners and fall short of glory and none of us are righteous.
     
    #16 Inquiring Mind, Oct 24, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 24, 2006
  17. Inquiring Mind

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    Nice comeback Tragic_pizza!

    People like Ed and the other Ed miss the finer points.

    Hello, I am Larry. Have you met my brother Ed and my other brother Ed?
     
    #17 Inquiring Mind, Oct 24, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 24, 2006
  18. Inquiring Mind

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    Can you back that up with Scripture?
     
  19. Ed Edwards

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    Gen 6:3 (KJV1611 Edition):
    And the LORD said, My Spirit shall not alwayes striue with man;
    for that hee also is flesh: yet his dayes shalbe
    an hundred and twenty yeeres.
     
  20. tragic_pizza

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    Hm. So if I am not a "real Christian," I live to be 120???
     

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