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Does the NKJV Follow the TR Texts?

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Dr. Bob, Aug 25, 2004.

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  1. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    No, not according to your redefintion. That they are not the same is obvious just as the AV1611 and KJV1769 are not the same.

    Another KJVO tactic called "evade the issue".

    I am sticking with thread (at least your portion ot it).

    You made a statement:
    The rules of debate allow for challenging the accuracy of any statement made

    I challenged you and your logic by holding the AV1611 against the KJV1769 Revision to the same test you put the KJV and the NKJV up against.

    “Things which are different are not the same”.

    HankD
     
    #21 HankD, Aug 25, 2004
  2. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    If and when I do it will be at my disgression.

    I don't need your help.
    You come here issuing a challenge then when I rebut you it suddenly becomes "if you want to argue".

    HankD
     
    #22 HankD, Aug 25, 2004
  3. michelle

    michelle New Member

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    --------------------------------------------------
    The rules of debate allow for challenging the accuracy of any statement made

    I challenged you and your logic by holding the AV1611 against the KJV1769 Revision to the same test you put the KJV and the NKJV up against.

    “Things which are different are not the same”.
    --------------------------------------------------

    No you aren't. You are twisting the truth, and presenting this as being for the SAME REASONS, to which they are not. Differences in the KJB were because of DIFFERENT REASONS, than for the REASONS the NKJV is different. You are very clever at doing this. However, you will not fool me, or anyone else who has been given the gift of spiritual discernment by the grace and lovingkindness of God.

    love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
    michelle
     
    #23 michelle, Aug 25, 2004
  4. michelle

    michelle New Member

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    The word "cherubim" can be used as either singular or plural, without adding the "s" in our English language. Just as the word "deer", and many other such Enlgish words.


    love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
    michelle
     
    #24 michelle, Aug 25, 2004
  5. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    My pix takes up 3,166 bytes of storage space.
    Your 25 Aug 01:43 AM CDT post takes up
    5,920 bytes of storage space.
    All your post seems to do it try to prove
    the NKJV is not the same as the KJV1769.
    Why do you need to try to convice a bunch
    of people who think the KJV1611 is different
    fromt he KJV1769 that the nKJV is also
    different from the KJV1769?

    The hidden assumption of Old Timer is that:
    No translation of the TR that is not equal
    to the KJV1769 is a good translation of the TR.

    Sorry bubba, but your assumption shows you
    have no idea what translation is all about;
    no firm concept of the change of languages
    over time.

    In 1769 the following would have been a
    compliment: Old Timer is a very liberal brother.
    Today the saying is an insult. I'll leave it to
    each reader to determine which meaning is
    intended.

    [​IMG] Praise the liberal Jesus [​IMG]

    [ August 25, 2004, 12:34 PM: Message edited by: Ed Edwards ]
     
    #25 Ed Edwards, Aug 25, 2004
  6. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Got it, Brother Ransom. New posters does not
    assure new double standards [​IMG]

    ---603 - The footnoes are not scripture in the KJV
    but are scripture in the nKJV.

    [​IMG]
     
    #26 Ed Edwards, Aug 25, 2004
  7. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    OK michelle some more of your amazing logic, things are different because they are different. I would understand this if I understood.

    OK, I agree, let the readers discern between your personal judgments against me and the facts you won't/can't rebut.

    HankD
     
    #27 HankD, Aug 25, 2004
  8. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    Old Timer:Genesis 22:8: One of the greatest verses in the Bible proclaiming that Jesus Christ was God in the flesh: "God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering:" The NKJV adds that little word "for": "God will provide for Himself the lamb for a burnt offering" And destroys the wonderful promise! Where'd they get their little "for"? From the NASV!

    But the CONTEXT shows "for" belongs there. God provided Abe & Ike a ram FOR HIMSELF, for them to sacrifice to Him. In your enthusiamm to try to support the KJVO myth, please be careful to find ALL the facts. A common KJVO error is to rip a verse out of context.
     
    #28 robycop3, Aug 25, 2004
  9. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    Old Timer:If you would have read the post you would see the answer.
    The NKJV and the real KJV are not the same.
    That would be called "proof."

    Who here says they're the same?

    The Gospels of Matthew and Luke aren't the same. But, are they both Scripture, or not?

    And so what if the NKJV departs in places from the mss used for the KJV? Does that make it WRONG? There's just as equal a case for the KJV's being incorrect. There have been over 5K mss or fragments of them found since 1611. Are they all to be ignored?
     
    #29 robycop3, Aug 25, 2004
  10. Pastor_Bob

    Pastor_Bob Well-Known Member

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    The sentence you left off of my quote answered this question. Here it is again.
    Note to Ed Edwards:
    You said, "---603 - The footno[t]es are not scripture in the KJV but are scripture in the nKJV."

    Would you please explain to me how you arrived at this conclusion from my posts that you quote.
     
    #30 Pastor_Bob, Aug 25, 2004
  11. timothy 1769

    timothy 1769 New Member

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    Titus 2, Verse 4

    KJV: That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,

    NKJV: that they admonish the young women to love their husbands, to love their children,

    Note "sober" has dropped out. I assume this is a textual issue?
     
    #31 timothy 1769, Aug 25, 2004
  12. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    Warning to Old Timer - the question on this thread is simply WHAT GREEK TEXT the NKJV uses. You have wasted time and space with your posts. If you continue, you can become a martyr.

    Pastor Bob - I think Ed was drawing a parallel. The AV1611 has numerous footnotes about variant Greek readings and other English words just as valid as the text. THAT is condemned by the "only" side.

    When you said the footnotes/variants in the NKJV was what bothered you, the parallel was set in motion!
     
    #32 Dr. Bob, Aug 25, 2004
  13. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    It's a Hebrew word transliterated into English.

    The English singular word is cherub, they should nave used cherubs if they wanted it to be correct english and cherubim not cherubims if they wanted it to be correct Hebrew.

    One entry found for cherub at Merriam-Webster Online, found in the public domain at :
    http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=cherubim

    Main Entry: cher·ub
    Function: noun
    Inflected Form(s): plural usually cher·u·bim
    Etymology: Latin, from Greek cheroub, from Hebrew kerubh
    1 plural : an order of angels -- see CELESTIAL HIERARCHY
    2 plural usually cherubs a : a usually winged child in painting and sculpture b : an innocent-looking usually chubby and rosy person
     
    #33 HankD, Aug 25, 2004
  14. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    Greek (Stephanos 1550 used as base for AV1611)
    ina = that
    sophronidzosin = they may school
    tas neas = the young [women]
    philandrous = lovers of husbands
    einai = to be
    philoteknous = lovers of children

    There is no word "sober" (greek = naphaleon) in the Greek, so the NKJV, following the Greek carefully, omit it.
     
    #34 Dr. Bob, Aug 25, 2004
  15. Scott J

    Scott J Active Member
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    What was the source for "sober"? Is it in the Latin Vulgate?
     
    #35 Scott J, Aug 25, 2004
  16. Bro Tony

    Bro Tony New Member

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    Without going on & on with all the verses you mentioned, the word "Christ" was omited in the NKJV because it is not in the Greek Text (Stephens 1550) That was used as the base of the AV1611.

    It seems for some it is easier to write a long list of misinformed comparisons than go to the Greek Text used for their favorite translation and find out what it actually says.

    Bro Tony
     
    #36 Bro Tony, Aug 25, 2004
  17. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    Sorry - can't find it there.
    Titus 2:4 ut prudentiam doceant adulescentulas ut viros suos ament filios diligant

    I Tim 3:2 HAS the greek word "sober" and is so translated in the Vulgate
    oportet ergo episcopum inreprehensibilem esse unius uxoris virum sobrium prudentem ornatum hospitalem doctorem
     
    #37 Dr. Bob, Aug 25, 2004
  18. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Strongest Strongs says "teach ... to be sober"
    is 4494 "sophronizo" meaning
    "to train, encourage, advise, urge: --
    teach to be sober" (this is used once
    in the N.T.)

    The REAL KJV, the version actually authorized,
    the KJV1611 edition reads:

    Titus 2:4 (KIV1611):
    That they may teach the
    young women to bee ||sober, to loue their
    husbands, to loue their children,

    || Or, wise

    Looks like a KJV example of dynamic equivalence
    to me [​IMG]
     
    #38 Ed Edwards, Aug 25, 2004
  19. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    Best translation would NOT have anything to do with "sober". Totally different word.

    The verb "teach" or "school" is a really neat word play. Paul was famous for these.

    v 4 VERB says "sophronidzosin" = school or teach
    v 5 starts with the SAME WORD as an ADJECTIVE "sophronas" = discreet

    So Paul uses a little-known word for "teach" in v 4 because of its connection to the character trait he was introducing in v 5.

    It could be translated "school discreetly to be lovers of [their] men, lovers of [their] children, discreet, chaste, workers at home, . . . "

    The AV1611 is truly implying "sober" as a noun/adjective in its own right, as it was in the list in I Tim 3. BUT IT IS NOT HERE and this is very deceptive translating.
     
    #39 Dr. Bob, Aug 25, 2004
  20. Pastor_Bob

    Pastor_Bob Well-Known Member

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    Titus 2:4
    ηινα σοπηρονιζοσιν
    Purpose clause, ηινα and present active subjunctive of σοπηρονιζο, old verb (from σοπηρον, sound in mind, σαοσ, πηρεν, as in this verse), to make sane, to restore to one's senses, to discipline. Robertson's New Testament Word Pictures
     
    #40 Pastor_Bob, Aug 25, 2004
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