Does the Will of God Then "Trump" Will Of man or Not?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by JesusFan, May 20, 2011.

  1. JesusFan

    JesusFan
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    has the Lord chosen to grant us enough free will, that He has agreed to limit His own Will, and allow us to make decisions fully?
    is it impossible for God to "override" will of man in any situation, as He decided to allow us to have "free will" in such a fashion that he cannot "trump" our decision making processes?
     
  2. Skandelon

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    I'm not sure how one can presume it is a "limitation" of God's will for Him to WILLINGLY chose to create free moral agents.

    Yes. But notice the means God uses to convince, persuade or change man's will.

    With Jonah, did God work internally to supernaturally change Jonah's nature and desires so as to make him want to preach in Ninevah? No. He used "normative" or "outward" means so as to allow him to respond and be convinced to do what otherwise he didn't want to do. Same is true of many throughout scripture. I think it is a mistake to presume God is somehow inwardly manipulating the nature and desires of man to casually determine their choices. He could, no doubt, but in scripture He just doesn't work that way.
     
  3. jbh28

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    When God's will and man's will disagree, God's will wins unless of course God's wills to allow you to have your will. :) like sin for instance.
     
  4. convicted1

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    God is not willing that any should perish.....
     
  5. Winman

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    It is obvious that God's will is not always being done unless you believe God wills sin.

    Jesus said sin is necessary in Matt 18:7.

    Mat 18:7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!

    God wants men to come to him of their own free will. Love requires free will. But free will makes it necessary that a man can choose to rebel against God and sin.

    Some say God could have prevented men from sinning, I disagree, Jesus said "it must needs be that offences come". Those that understand love requires free will can understand this.

    God is love, and real love never compels another person to return love. God had to give us free will to be consistent with his nature. But free will must allow for a person to choose not to love God.
     
  6. JesusFan

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    yes, but just HOW free are we really, after the fall?
    Believe that ONLY beings like Satan, Adam and Eve were "free" in sense w/o sin natures, were morally perfect following God disobeyed and sinned against Lord...

    After Fall, NONE of us have that same option, as born into original Sin and depravity, so we now have sinful natures if left to their own device would never accept jesus, as we would rebel and stay in the dark!
     
  7. JesusFan

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    That is the point... IF God allowed us "absolute free will" to make a decision to receive Christ, NONE of us would, as we are sinful beings whose heart and mind is bent to rejecting true God, prefering instead to have god and religion of our own making!
     
  8. Winman

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    That is because you assume original sin and total depravity correct. Read the account in Genesis and show me where it says man became so depraved he could not come to God. You will see the opposite. Did Adam and Eve come to God when he called them? YES!

    In the next chapter God told Cain that if he did well he would be accepted. The fact that he didn't does not negate the fact that God said he could have.

    And I'm sure you know of Moses and Joshua telling the people to choose God. Moses and Joshua were certainly not Calvinists.

    No, the Genesis account tells us the ground was cursed. We are made of the dust and return to it, just as animals, insects, and plants do that cannot sin. This is physical death. The other thing that happened is that man became as God to know good and evil. This is not evil, as God has this knowledge, but it does make us accountable when we sin. Before this Adam and Eve were innocent, running around naked and not being aware.

    A sin nature is not required to sin, Adam and Eve, Satan, and the angels prove this, they were all created perfect in a sinless environment, yet all sinned. Free will is what enables sin, but free will is required for love.

    Believe what the Bible says happened, not what Augustine and Calvin falsely taught.

    Show me where God ever cursed man's moral nature in the scriptures, you won't find it.
     
  9. JesusFan

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    Romans Chapter 7, Apostle paul describing himself as a sinner, bondage to the sin in him, and the outworking of that sin in him thru breaking Law of God...

    Apostle John also told us IF we say we have NO sin in us, we are liars,truth is NOT in us, but IF we confess out sins, He will fully forgive and cleanse us!
     
  10. The Archangel

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    So...If I've understood you correctly...you are saying "Yes, it is impossible for God to 'override' the will of man in any situation."

    Given the following paragraph, it is likely you think that God does not override the will but He, like the prosecution or defense council, is pleading His case to us in a desperate attempt for us to agree with Him. Is that a fair understanding of what you're arguing?

    It would seem that you have created a "theological" construct here where man, not God, has the final say. Even so, it would seem that man is--at the very least--co-sovereign with God.

    Your line of reasoning, if I've rightly understood it, necessarily means that God has created beings that are either co-equal or superior to Him in some way.

    This, of course, bears absolutely no resemblance to anything we see in the Bible.

    The problem here, though, is that as the account of Jonah plays out, it becomes crystal clear that Jonah never wants to preach to Nineveh. But, again, the point of the Book of Jonah is not Jonah's initial response to flee God's presence...it is Jonah's attitude toward the Ninevites. Jonah's rebellion against God was not a problem with God, per se. Rather, Jonah didn't want the Ninevites to be spared God's wrath. The over-arching point of Jonah, then, is taking the Gospel to even those whom you don't like. For us today, then, it would apply to taking the Gospel to Muslims as it would have applied in the late 60s to taking the Gospel to Vietnam or in the 40s and 50s taking the Gospel to Germany and/or Japan.

    All of this is to say that it was not God's plan to change Jonah's inward nature. It was God's goal all along to have Jonah go through the motions with outward actions lacking the internal change.

    Be that as it may, it is a mistake to say "God doesn't manipulate the nature and desires of man to casually determine their choices" because there is so many places with so many people that say otherwise. Abraham's desires were changed; Jacob's entire nature was changed. David writes, in the Psalms, about a "new heart;" the prophet Ezekiel writes about having a heart replacement (stone--flesh).

    What is more--since the Bible clearly states that the heart of man is desperately wicked and desiring of only evil continually--it is easy to see that those who come to be worshipers of God are not the same, they have been changed.

    It would appear that you are suggesting that all that needs to be changed is our outward actions. This leads down the road that the Pharisees followed and that many today follow--outward obedience with inward deadness. Hence the passage "This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me."

    The heart is the issue. It always has been and it always will be. Only God can change a heart.

    The Archangel
     
    #10 The Archangel, May 21, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: May 21, 2011
  11. percho

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    It has to be a gift from God.

    Thread starting questions. :thumbs:

    About OP. God is. huh God. The Red One of Rook.
     
    #11 percho, May 21, 2011
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  12. Winman

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    A person becomes a slave to sin AFTER they sin. What are the wages of sin? Death. So, the moment you sin you becomed enslaved to sin, with the result being death. I can show you this from scripture.

    John 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

    Did Jesus say whosoever is a servant to sin commits sin? No. he said the exact opposite, he said that whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

    James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
    14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
    15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

    Does this say death bringeth forth sin? No, it says the exact opposite, it says sin brings forth death. But many teach you are born dead and must sin. This is false and the opposite of what scripture says. Paul said similar:

    Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

    Did Paul say you have to sin because you were born the servant of sin? No, he said the exact opposite, he said that to whom ye "yield yourselves" servants to obey, his servants ye are.

    Let me ask you, does a person start to smoke cigarettes because they were born addicted to them, or does a person become an addict, a slave to cigarettes because they first start to smoke when they were not an addict?

    Same with drugs, are you born a drug addict and this causes you to start taking drugs? Or, does a person start to take drugs when they are not addicted, but soon becomes a slave to drugs?

    You tell me, which is it?
     
    #12 Winman, May 21, 2011
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  13. JesusFan

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    Well
    Jeremiah said the the human heat is "deceitfully wicked"
    Jesus said 'from the heart"
    Paul said the things of the Flesh sin nature are evident

    Bible says out of the mouth of 2-3 witnesses testimony proves the witness is true..
     
  14. jbh28

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    It is because of Adam's sin that sin nature was imputed to us.
    God didn't say anything about if he "could" have but that if he did. Also, total depravity doesn't mean that you are as evil as you can be.

    Free will is not required to love. No verse says it. The ability to not to love is not required to love. Otherwise, we wouldn't love God in heaven as much as here on earth unless you believe it's possible to not love God in heaven.
     
  15. Winman

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    Yes, the heart is deceitfully wicked, but it does not say you are born this way. In fact, the scriptures say you BECOME this way. I will show you.

    Gen 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

    Calvinists love this verse, but if they read a little further they would see man BECAME this way.

    Gen 6:12 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.

    Look up the word corrupt. It means to go from a good state to a bad state. If you are born corrupt, you cannot become corrupt. No, you must first be good to become corrupt. This is the definition of the word.

    Here is the definition of "corrupted" as a verb from the dictionary.

    Do you see that corrupted means to alter something for the worse? It means to spoil that which had been good?

    Why do the scriptures repeatedly say we have gone astray? What does that mean to go astray? Doesn't that mean to run away from something? If you were born a sinner, how could you go astray in sin?

    Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

    Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

    People overlook the obvious. The scriptures describe men as going astray, becoming unprofitable. They have corrupted themselves.

    Ecc 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

    God does not create evil. He creates upright men, but they in their own free will choose to sin and become corrupt.
     
    #15 Winman, May 21, 2011
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  16. JesusFan

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    So IF a person always chose to do right, and not to sin, would he still need the death of Jesus on Cross to provide him eternal life or not? Would he be providing it for himself?
     
  17. Winman

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    We already went over this, when the young rich ruler asked Jesus what he must do to inherit eternal life, Jesus said, "Thou knowest the commandments". I do believe this strongly implies if a man could possibly keep all the commandments for his entire life he could inherit eternal life.


    Gal 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

    So what? Do you know of anybody besides Jesus who has done this?

    It seems to offend some to believe man could ever be good. Were Adam and Eve good? Did they go their whole life without sinning? And consider they were born into a sinless world with only one law, yet they sinned the very FIRST time they were tempted. Now, do you honestly believe we who are born into an utterly wicked world with thousands of temptations and many laws could manage to live sinless? If so, you are a better man than me.

    The fact is, whether possible or not the scriptures say all men HAVE sinned.

    I knew a fellow once who belonged to a Holiness church. He said that there was an elderly man in his church who had not sinned in years. I bet him he could not go 24 hours without sinning. He replied, "Oh, that is easy! I can easily go 24 hours without sinning!".

    I said, "The scriptures say boasting is a sin, you just sinned."

    Man, I thought he was going to punch me he got so angry.

    I don't worry too much about possibilities. All I know is that I have sinned and I need Jesus.
     
  18. percho

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    Well they should have included in the def. from bad to worse. :)
     
  19. percho

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    Originally Posted by JesusFan View Post
    So IF a person always chose to do right, and not to sin, would he still need the death of Jesus on Cross to provide him eternal life or not? Would he be providing it for himself?


    And to add to what you have said even though we see things different.

    (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. A statement of fact. Yet.
    Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression,

    Death without qualification came to all men by Adam and it is death that man has to be redeemed from. Earnest until the redemption of the purchased possession, speaking of our birth by resurrection of the person that died which was brought about by his (Jesus) blood (Death) and resurrection being the firstborn from the dead.

    No?
     
  20. JesusFan

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    man is born aleady into the stae of being under the judgement/condemnation of God, due to the fact that when Adam fell, God sees him as being the Head of the human race, that all humanity in a sense "shared" in his guilt and sin...

    SO ALL would need the cross of Christ in order to avoid condemantion...
    The idea of a man being born with a "clean slate" before God, that would not be held liable to God if/until actually sinning not in the Bible
     

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