Doesn;t the Bible Teach Regeneration/faith Happens At Same Time In Life Of Christian?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by JesusFan, Mar 28, 2011.

  1. JesusFan

    JesusFan
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    Know that Classic reformed theology states
    Regenerate, than have faith to save

    Free Will is
    have saving faith, than get regenerated

    Why not be both at same time?
     
    #1 JesusFan, Mar 28, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 28, 2011
  2. Tom Butler

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    Yes, I think that's do-able.

    I'm one who believes that regeneration precedes faith, chronologically as well as logically.
    For some, regeneration may precede faith with some length of time between the two.

    For others, they may occur in quick order. That's my testimony.
     
  3. jbh28

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    That's what I believe. No one has faith and it's regenerate. No one is regenerate without faith.
     
  4. convicted1

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    This may ,or may not, confuse some, but I hope to make a "clear" example of where faith comes in. Let's look at Noah, for instance.

    God told him what he needed to do, what to do it with, and how big to build it. He told Noah that He was going to cause it to rain, and destroy man for their wicked lifestyle, and that their thoughts were always evil. I may not have this pegged right, but I think it had never rained on earth at this time, but a mist came up from the ground....but I could be wrong, but I don't think so(please correct me on this if I am wrong). Now, if Noah had trusted(Faith) God, he wouldn't have did what he did(build the ark), nor would he probably not have believed a word He said. But, Noah did believe Him, and did what he did in building the ark, and gathering the animals to put in that ark. When God sealed the door of the ark shut, it started raining, and the "fountains of the deep" opened up as well.

    So in summary, if Noah had not put His faith in God, and believed what He told him was going to happen, when the first rain drop fell, it would have been too late for him to say, "God, I believe you!!" Noah was 500 when he started building the ark, and when he was 600, it rained, and all mankind, with the exception of 8 souls, perished with the flood.

    Same thing goes today. When God shows us a lost sinner, and that we need to repent, and do what He tells us we need to do, when the flood comes(death), it will be too late to scream, "God, I believe you!!" So faith comes before salvation, and not before, or during.

    i am I AM's!!

    Willis
     
  5. Greektim

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    Definitely one way to allegorize that story for your soteriological purpose. But you could also argue that Noah found grace in the eyes of God. With that in mind, seems Noah's salvation was preceded by God's election and was conditioned on God's choice and unconditional on the part of Noah.

    The issue w/ faith and regeneration is mostly one of cause and effect for me. Using chronological wording like "preceded" conveys something that may not be clear. Likely, both faith and regeneration take place at the same moment. But the issue is over which causes the other.
     
  6. JesusFan

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    I do tend to see both processes occuring so close that per our perspective, they would happen same time..

    Believe that teach from the Bible either way of initial salvation

    R to f
    F to r

    just have a problem with those who would say like infants are giving regeneration by Baptism or at early ages and than will "show" their election by exercising that saving faith while adults!
     
  7. Van

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    John 1:12-13 lays out the sequence. After we believe, then we are given the right to become sons of God. We are made alive together with Christ, so regeneration happens when we are spiritually placed in Christ. We undergo the circumcision of Christ and then arise in Christ a new creation, born again if you will by the will of God. As a spiritual child of God we become heirs, and thus are sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit as a pledge.
     
  8. convicted1

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    I agree with the sentence I bolded, Bro. Tim. Grace always come first, meaning that God must first draw us. However, if we don't put our faith in Him(which is given by Him, BTW), we will not be saved.

    Tit. 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

    12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

    13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

    Heb. 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.


    Sorry, Brother, but I disagree....but I am sure you do with me, too. Jesus told the woman with the issue of blood, "Thy faith has made thee whole." The Syrophenician(sp?) woman whose daughter was dying, Jesus told her that He "hadn't seen such faith." So in both scenarios, faith was the cause of the healing. So, I beleive that faith MUST precede salvation.

    i am I AM's!!

    Willis
     
  9. Winman

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    If regeneration means that a man is convicted, taught, and given understanding by the word of God, then you could say regeneration precedes faith.

    But if regeneration means to be born again and have spiritual life, then faith precedes regeneration, because until you believe you are dead in your trespasses and sins. The very wages of sin is death, so until your sins are forgiven and taken away you are spiritually dead.

    Regeneration is instant, but believeing takes time. No one can believe the gospel until they hear it and understand it. That takes real time.

    If a man is regenerated, and hears the most simple presentation of the gospel and instantly understands it and believes, even for that small amount of time he would be regenerated and yet dead in sins. If it took only ten seconds for a man to hear John 3:16, fully understand it and believe, for that ten seconds he would be both spiritually alive and yet dead in his sins at the same moment. This is absurd, illogical, and completely impossible.

    You cannot be spiritually alive until your sins are forgiven, and you cannot be forgiven until you believe. So, if regeneration means to be born again and spiritually alive, faith MUST precede regeneration.
     
  10. percho

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    What about this?

    Faith is the washing of regeneration.

    Eph 2:8 ye are saved through faith.
    Titus 3:5 ye are saved by the washing of regeneration

    Now faith is
    the substance of things hoped for = In hope of eternal life, = a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead = the washing of regeneration
    the evidence of things not seen. = Jesus resurrected

    Rom. 3:25
    Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation (the mercy seat of salvation, being saved)
    through faith in his blood = the washing of regeneration
     

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