Doesn't Hebrews 2:3 Show The Sign Gifts Had Already Ceased?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Yeshua1, Oct 26, 2012.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    17,080
    Likes Received:
    49
    Even before all of the Apostles had died even?
     
  2. mont974x4

    mont974x4
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2012
    Messages:
    2,565
    Likes Received:
    1
    Heb 2:1 For this reason we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away from it.
    Heb 2:2 For if the word spoken through angels proved unalterable, and every transgression and disobedience received a just penalty,
    Heb 2:3 how will we escape if we neglect so great a salvation? After it was at the first spoken through the Lord, it was confirmed to us by those who heard,
    Heb 2:4 God also testifying with them, both by signs and wonders and by various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit according to His own will. (NASB)

    Nope, it doesn't say anything of the sort. The point being made in this section of Scripture is Christ spoke concerning salvation. A key aspect of that is the He was God on the flesh. The people who witnessed, heard, what He said told others. The Father also testified through miraculous events to prove that Christ is who He claimed to be.

    This reminds us of what Jesus said in John:

    Joh 5:26 "For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself;
    Joh 5:27 and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man.
    Joh 5:28 "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
    Joh 5:29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.
    Joh 5:30 "I can do nothing on My own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
    Joh 5:31 "If I alone testify about Myself, My testimony is not true.
    Joh 5:32 "There is another who testifies of Me, and I know that the testimony which He gives about Me is true.
    Joh 5:33 "You have sent to John, and he has testified to the truth.
    Joh 5:34 "But the testimony which I receive is not from man, but I say these things so that you may be saved.
    Joh 5:35 "He was the lamp that was burning and was shining and you were willing to rejoice for a while in his light.
    Joh 5:36 "But the testimony which I have is greater than the testimony of John; for the works which the Father has given Me to accomplish--the very works that I do--testify about Me, that the Father has sent Me.
    Joh 5:37 "And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form.
    Joh 5:38 "You do not have His word abiding in you, for you do not believe Him whom He sent.
    Joh 5:39 "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;
    Joh 5:40 and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life
    . (NASB)
     
  3. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    17,080
    Likes Received:
    49
    Veres 2:3-4 seem though to tie into the fact that JUST the Apostles were granted those kind of Giftd by God, and that they had ALREADY used them to confirm jesus and the Gospel!

    Already done deed, why need those kind of sign gifts any more, as their purpose was now gone?
     
  4. mont974x4

    mont974x4
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2012
    Messages:
    2,565
    Likes Received:
    1
    I don't see that anywhere in the passage.


    Let's look at Ephesians 4:
    Eph 4:10 He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.)
    Eph 4:11 And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers,
    Eph 4:12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ;
    Eph 4:13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ. (NASB)

    1. This is after Christ ascended back to Heaven.
    2. Has verse 13 occurred? No, therefore those spiritual offices must continue. If they must continue then they must also be empowered by the Spirit.


    Look at the lists in 1 Cor 12, Rom 12, and 1 Peter 4. Can we really say that the Church no longer needs healing? Word of Wisdom? Words of Knowledge? Teaching? Pastors? Prophecy (defined purely as speaking the message of God)? I would say we most surely do need these as none of us would be saved apart from it. How can we have eyes to see and ears to hear (spiritually speaking) without them? How can we receive the seed firmly implanted without them?
     
  5. awaken

    awaken
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2012
    Messages:
    3,346
    Likes Received:
    0

    :applause::thumbs:
     
  6. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    13,381
    Likes Received:
    728
    It is in the passage if you understand it correctly. The apostolic witness{those having heard the Lord] was confirmed...by signs and wonders.
     
  7. awaken

    awaken
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2012
    Messages:
    3,346
    Likes Received:
    0
    Confirmed...but not ended!
     
  8. DHK

    DHK
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    134
    They were signs to confirm the authority of the apostles, as the passage says. There are no apostles today. The last apostle was John who died at the beginning of the second century shortly after he wrote Revelation, 98 A.D. Thus the gifts have ceased.
     
  9. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    13,381
    Likes Received:
    728
    Yes...we still have the confirmed testimony ...in scripture:
     
  10. awaken

    awaken
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2012
    Messages:
    3,346
    Likes Received:
    0
    It does not say that...you added it! Nowhere does it say it will cease before Jesus comes back.
     
  11. DHK

    DHK
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    134
    Hebrews 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
    4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

    God bore them (the apostles) witness with signs and wonders and miracles and the gifts of the Holy Ghost.
    I am not adding anything. God bore the apostle witness. It is evident that we don't have the apostles today, and the witness of these signs and wonders, etc., were to bear them not us witness. We don't need it. We have the Word of God.

    Take heed to the words of Christ.
    An evil and adulterous generation seek after a sign, but I say unto you that there shall no sign be given unto them but the sign of Jonah. For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the whale, so shall the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

    Who seeks after a sign??

    2 Corinthians 12:12 Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.
    --Signs and wonders were the sign of an apostle.
    No more apostles; no more signs and wonders. It is really that simple.
     
  12. awaken

    awaken
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2012
    Messages:
    3,346
    Likes Received:
    0
    Again! I do agree with scriptures and do not deny that the apostles were confirmed by signs and wonders. I just do not agree with your add on saying that they have ceased!

    I do not seek after a sign, do you? I seek God!
     
  13. DHK

    DHK
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    134
    Speaking in tongues is "seeking a sign."
    Believing in the gifts of the gifts of the Spirit--that they are operative today--is the same as looking for signs and wonders. Yes, you look for signs and wonders, whether or not want to admit it.
     
  14. awaken

    awaken
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2012
    Messages:
    3,346
    Likes Received:
    0
    Wrong...speaking in tongues is a manifestation of the Spirit!
    NO, I am not or have I ever sought a sign...as a matter of fact I fought against them for years..just as you are now!
     
  15. DHK

    DHK
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    134
    Speaking in tongues is a sign:
    It is a sign to the unbelieving Jew that judgment would come, as it did in the first century.
    It is a sign to authenticate the apostles and their message; it did and they are now dead.

    It was a sign, but is no longer a sign for it has ceased. Anyone who seeks to speak in tongues seeks after a sign. You speak in tongues, so you say. You seek a sign. Yet, you know the tongues you speak are not the Biblical gift of tongues or languages. Otherwise you would know the language you were speaking in.

    Think about it carefully. It worked this way. If Paul went to a foreign nation like Spain, then, not knowing that language the Lord would give him that gift to speak in that language. He would know that he would be speaking in Spanish. The Lord would give him the "entire package." He would be able to speak it, think in it, use the grammar properly, the syntax, have a very good vocabulary, etc. God would miraculously give him the ability to speak in that language. He would know he would be speaking in Spanish and would be able to think in the language that he was speaking. That was the gift of tongues/languages.
    You can't do that. You don't have the gift of tongues.
     
  16. awaken

    awaken
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2012
    Messages:
    3,346
    Likes Received:
    0
    No, tongues is a manifestation of the spirit. It was only a sign to the unbeliever if it was not interpretated. No where does it say tongues is to authenticate just the apostles!
    No, anyone that speaks in tongues is manifesting the Holy Spirit just as scriptures say in 1 Cor. 12. THey have not ceased and you have only showed what you believe without scriptures saying otherwise! I have shown over and over that they will be here until Jesus returns!

    No where do you see that in scriptures! YOu have understood it that was to back up your unbelief that it is not for today! NOWHERE in scriptures does it say tongues was for spreading the gospel..they were given to the church FOR the church..and the church is still here!
     
  17. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    17,080
    Likes Received:
    49
    The 'special Gifts' from the Spirit such as tongues/prophecies etc were tied in together with the offices of the Apsotle/priophets of the NT church, as Paul said the prophets among you were to judge all utterances, and the Apsotles when speaking doctrines were giving revelation same way OT prophets had!

    IF you can prove a case for NT offices of BOTh Apostles/prophets still opena nd finctioning, would prove your case, but you cannot from the Bible do that!
     
  18. awaken

    awaken
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2012
    Messages:
    3,346
    Likes Received:
    0
    tongues/prophecy etc. were given to more than just the apostles!

    THe original 12 apostles were here when Jesus walked the earth, right?
    Do you believe that the office of an apostle was given as a ministry to the church after Jesus died and resurrected?
     
  19. DHK

    DHK
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    134
    No, they ceased. After Matthias, and then Paul, there were no more. Scripture makes that very clear with the voting in of Matthias to fulfill the "office" of Judas who betrayed Christ. Paul is described as one who was born "out of due time," and a "special dispensation" was given unto him. There are no more apostles. There are 12 foundations of the New Jerusalem, each of them having one of the names of the 12 apostles on them. Does that sound like there will be any more that the Twelve?
     
  20. DHK

    DHK
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    134
    Do you deny Heb.2:3,4 and 2Cor.12:12, both of which have been explained to you many times.
    As I explained to you, the passage is not about "a manifestation." You fail to take into account the context, the verses before and after. The passage is speaking about spiritual gifts that were revealed in the church of Corinth through the Holy Spirit. For you to bluntly say they have not ceased without scriptural backup is just foolishness. I exegeted that passage for you so you could understand that it is speaking of spiritual gifts in the context of the Corinthian church. The subject is not "manifestation."
    And Paul went on three missionary journeys establishing more than 100 churches. He said to the Corinthians: "I thank God that I speak in tongues more than you all." It was out of necessity. For he also said: "I would rather speak 5 words with understanding than 10,000 words in an unknown tongue." The necessity of speaking in a foreign language (that is what a tongue was), was when he was in a foreign country. It was not just for nilly willy show off purposes which have no value.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

Loading...