Featured Don't legalize Drugs...

Inspector Javert, I think the main point is simple and somehow being lost. I don't know exactly what you do, but with it being your work, I'm sure it means a lot to you and is worth defending.
Maybe everyone's missing the main point for all the "guy talk" happening in the middle.

I think the idea here is that you can't turn off the ocean by damming a creek, and it appears that our country is damming a creek and trying to tell us that will stop the drug problem, and thinking we'll believe it, because they don't WANT to stop the ocean. It's too profitable. (kind of like why alcohol will never stop, despite the horrific loss of life on our public roads, numerous broken families and tragedies, etc., there is profit in buying and selling spirits, and yes, I use that word purposely!)

That doesn't make everyone who is damming the creek (trying to stop the harm that drugs are doing) an automatic bad guy who is knowingly a part of the drug trade. You obviously are not. You make a difference where you are, in the moment. That's important.

The concept (I think) is that the bigger picture makes the smaller one hopeless in the long run, as proven already simply by time. Drugs are still coming in. The dealers may change, locations may change, but overall, the problem isn't any smaller. Everyone's still profiting off of addiction, the people addicted are still broken, and there's no sign of it getting better. In a war, when you're not winning, you're losing.

As long as the ocean still flows and we try to stop it by damming a creek, we're going to continue to lose. The question would be why this country keeps trying a failing method. Maybe on your turf, it has improved your area and that is great, it means you're doing your job and so are others in your area, but do you truly, honestly think that in the big picture, it's working for America?

This is why I posted before that a whole different approach needs to happen...but anyhow, wanted to word it this way and see what you thought.

 

Quick OT note - IJ, I am on a computer rather than on my phone right now, so I can see your sig. Awesome. I wonder how many people that is lost on.

Back OT - This whole conversation (sans insults and OT ranting) is one that is interesting to me. I can see merit on both sides of the argument. Currently, I lean towards the legalization of marijuana, while keeping everything else illegal.

I believe that marijuana use is so rampant now, that it has attained a status similar to that of alcohol. "Everyone is doing it" we hear. Obviously not statistically true, but many people are doing it, and they won't stop. With government regulating the sale of MJ, at least we could make sure that what people are smoking is not laced. I realize that this creates more government interference, but at the same time, it lowers government interference on the criminal side.

Will there still be criminals? Yes. Will people still set pot "under the table"? Yes. But your average pot smoker doesn't want to go to jail for buying illegally. They just want to get high.

Now, the statistics are interesting. A very low percentage of people that smoke MJ go on to try other drugs. http://www.drugpolicy.org/drug-facts/10-facts-about-marijuana/sources#other_drugs However, most people who try other drugs started with MJ http://teens.drugabuse.gov/drug-facts/marijuana .

So, obviously, the trend is that those who smoke MJ have a low risk of trying other drugs. But, those that intend to try other drugs start with MJ.

 

Very glad that these last few posts have avoided the earlier vitriol and dealt with the OP subject. I oppose any widespread legalization of drugs, and if marijuana were legalized I'd like to see some well-funded scientific research on the full spectrum of its effects - simialr to that required of companies seeking to market a new pharmaceutical. People get sick and die, and despite the superabundance of anectodal info, I don't think we have all that much scientifically established data, especially controlled double-blind studies, on whether MJ influences that sickening/dying (either by preventing or hastening) or has little/no effect for must ailments.

A widespread (or full) legalization brings up a couple questions (actually many, but these two seem most pertinent):
1. What additional substances will amateur (and some professional) chemists develop to cater to some people's desire for altered consciousness, and what side effects/dangers will those new drugs present?
2. Assuming that there will be some substances just too toxic and/or dangerous to those other than users, where will the "legal line" be drawn?

Drug cartels, like most organized crime, act much like other businesses. If a certain market is closed to them, they don't merely dry up and blow away, but shift their efforts to another product. Wherever the gov't legal line might be made, purveyors of drugs would likely switch to the "underdrugs" to take advantage of the high risk-high reward market. This conceivably could result in a net social improvement (the super-nasty drawing but a tiny user group) or it might foster increases in the most dangerous drugs. I'm not sure I want to run that experiment.

 

No IJ, that was not the implication at all. Simply a nod to your job, in a positive way, and a suggestion that maybe looking at the topic without involving what you do for a living would be helpful for everyone discussing this. Because I've seen your posts elsewhere and know you're not the enemy here by a long shot...

My own thoughts on this topic have been stated before, here, as far as my reason for why I would ever think legalization should happen: http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2106226&postcount=2

 

You're new, so I'll state up front that I am a licensed substance abuse and marriage and family counselor in Missouri and Kansas.

We have all the research we need to prove marijuana is a dangerous drug that should remain a Schedule I controlled substance. It is a psychoactive drug, meaning it crosses the brain-blood barrier and directly affects the brain as a hallucinogen, similar to the effects of LSD. Unfortunately the most effective ingesting method is to smoke it, and it has seven times more tar and several times more other carcinogens than regular tobacco, making it more dangerous physiologically as well. It affects brain development, negatively impacting the ability to think and reason rationally and normally. It causes Amotivational Syndrome, particularly among students at the high school and college levels.

Marijuana usage raises the heart rate by 20-100% for up to three hours after ceasing smoking, and this is true regardless of frequency or level of usage. That makes a heart attack 4.8 times more likely among any marijuana smokers. Heavier usage induces temporary psychotic conditions that may be worse in those who are genetically predisposed to brain chemical imbalance leading to psychoses such as any of the varieties of schizophrenia, mood disorders, and socially negative personality disorders. Marijuana smokers may, despite not having a family history of psychoses, develop some form of those mental health diseases.

Associations have also been found between marijuana use and other mental health problems, such as depression, anxiety, suicidal thoughts among adolescents, and personality disturbances, including a lack of motivation to engage in typically rewarding activities. More research is still needed to confirm and better understand these linkages.

Marijuana use during pregnancy is associated with increased risk of neurobehavioral problems in babies. Because THC and other compounds in marijuana mimic the body’s own endocannabinoid chemicals, marijuana use by pregnant mothers may alter the developing endocannabinoid system in the brain of the fetus. Consequences for the child may include problems with attention, memory, and problem solving.

Finally, recent studies indicate that marijuana usage is more than twice as likely to result in a injury or fatal accident than the use of alcohol is. There is no way this substance should be legalized.

 

LEAP's Peter Christ at the St Albans Rotary

Captain Peter Christ (ret.), co-founder of Law Enforcement Against Prohibition (LEAP) brings his powerful yet entertaining critique of the War on Drugs to the St. Albans, VT Rotary.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDCf-Et2_Mc

Peter Christ Answers Tough Questions About Ending the War on drugs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yJT1ImT600

LEAP's Randie Long explains drug war corruption

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4KH3_0XjmT0

 

Published on Mar 26, 2014

Major Neill Franklin, Executive Director of LEAP (Law Enforcement Against Prohibition) describes his journey from narcotics enforcement officer to advocate for ending the War on Drugs, particularly Cannabis.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyrjtAdWaok

 

Derail of thread noted. This thread is about whether or not to legalize drugs. That has nothing to do with the success or failure of the so-called war on drugs.

 

Thanks for that info, TNID.
I should have been clearer about the research, and focused on potential risks/benefits of medicinal use without getting into recreational use. Having read testimonials, from both laypeople and medical professionals, about marijuana's value in preventing nausea during chemo (among other uses), I wonder if there have been tests quantifying how well it works compared to placebos. Many of our valuable pharmaceuticals also have significant undesirable side effects and can be dangerous if misused, but are used because the potentail benefits are thought to outweigh the risks. Those promoting medical MJ often speak as if there were no risks, only benefits, and if there's peer-reviewed research comparing risks and benefits, it deserves wider publicity.

 

There isn't. For one, the preferred method of delivery is too dangerous to do testing. No one wants test subjects suing them for inducing lung cancer 15 years from now. The efforts to isolate the active ingredient -- THC -- and put it in pill form have failed miserably, likely not because the effective delivery method of smoking is so much superior to providing the THC to the patient, but that the actual benefits of the THC are greatly exaggerated by those who want the drug to be legalized.

 

DEA Task Force Officer and former Judge speak out

Reality and what the control system want us to believe are two separate things.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-x7P8Yx7pzo

The U.S. Subsidizes the Illegal Drug Trade, Which Buys the Banks - Ron Paul

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEx6ITprBiw

Ron Paul on CIA drug running - 1/23/10 speech Part 3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vv1vvRv1EW0

 

Attempted derail of thread noted yet again -- the thread isn't about the so-called war on drugs. If you have nothing to contribute to the topic at hand, don't contribute at all.

 

Two seasoned veterans of the War on Drugs, Stephen Downing and Terry Nelson, talk about the real motivation for our failed drug policies.

http://www.leap.cc/is-the-drug-war-all-about-the-money/

How can we make an informed decision without having all the information? Shouldn't we look at the pro's and the con's of keeping drugs illegal then weigh all the facts and evidence before we make up our minds? Does it really make sense to base any decision on preconceived notions or prejudice and fear? We'll go to great lengths to compare the cost vs benefit of different policies when choosing a $300 car insurance policy shouldn't we do the same when looking at an 80 -90 billion dollar a year drug policy?

Isn't that the logical conservative thing to do?

Just asking.

 

Third attempt to derail thread noted. Start you own! Oh, you did -- like 400 times.

 

Check your messages.

Read LEAP's new report . . . After Prohibition.

http://www.leap.cc/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/After-Prohibition.pdf

 

(Private messages are just that----private---and content should not be revealed in open forums)---Moderator blackbird

I thought it was wonderful news. Doesn't matter to me. I respond to his posts (mainly) to alert others to the falseness and off-topicness of his posts and not for his viewing. So I'll just keep on rebutting his ridiculousness.

 

Watch Now: Film Recommendations From LEAP

http://www.leap.cc/films/