Dr. Danny Akin’s Article on Calvinism

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by mandym, Jun 10, 2012.

  1. mandym

    mandym
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    So Dr. akin said we need to town down the rehtoric when it comes to things like "Calvinism is the gospel", "God hates the non-elect", and "God damns babies to hell".
     
    #1 mandym, Jun 10, 2012
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  2. mandym

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    So the TULIP has nothing to do with John Calvin

    There has always been a diversity of Baptists in the Convention not just cals.

    So the difference between the Cal and non-Cal view of election need not be viewed as contradictory according too Dr. Akin.

    http://www.baptisttwentyone.com/2012/06/dr-danny-akins-article-on-calvinism/
     
    #2 mandym, Jun 10, 2012
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  3. GBC Pastor

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    In terms of keeping peace in the SBC I would agree with this sentiment. However, in theological terms both sides could be wrong, but they cannot both be right. There is certainly a contradiction between the two views.
     
  4. 12strings

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  5. Yeshua1

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    perhaps its due to BOTH the determined and permissive Wills of God being at work here?

    he DOEs and WOULD desire that ALL be saved, provided basis for that thru the death of Christ, but also has to determine who will be saved by that act, as we cannot freely choose based upon our own sinfulness?
     
  6. GBC Pastor

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    So if I understand you correctly...God desires that all be saved...has the final determination in who will be saved...but is not powerful enough to cause that which He desires...the salvation of all?

    Is that really what you are trying to say?
     
  7. HeirofSalvation

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    No, it isn't, no one is speaking of God's inability or lack of power here except you. You mention God's inability on this thread....no one yet has. Since you mention them first here: What do you then feel to be the limits of God's power?
     
  8. Yeshua1

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    Nope!

    God desires that all would come to christ and become saved, but also knows that their very sinful natures would precluse this, so then he steps into determine that those saved by hos mercies and grace will come to chrsit to get saved!

    He loves all people in a general sense, he created them all, but has a specific personal love towards those in a Covenant relationship with him!
     
  9. GBC Pastor

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    But who puts them into a covenant relationship?

    I'm sorry but I just can't follow this line of thought.

    If God chooses those who will be in covenant relationship with Him...and as you have said He desires all people to be saved...then one of two things must be true since we know that not all people are saved...either:

    1) God doesn't really desire all people to be saved even though His word says He does.

    or

    2) God desires all people to be saved and has complete control over salvation but somehow cannot accomplish that which He desires.
     
  10. HeirofSalvation

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  11. GBC Pastor

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    Ok HeirofSalvation: Since you chose to jump into a conversation you weren't involved in...I would love to hear how this is a false dichotomy...because simply denying something doesn't make it so...And if it is possible you can leave the tone of arrogance and the insults out of your response...they don't interest me nor bring glory to Christ...and as I have in no way used them towards anyone in this thread I think it is more than a little out of place
     
  12. jonathan.borland

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    Hey GBC, most of them will say that God desires all [of the elect] to be saved. But then they have some disagreement on how to interpret Jesus' feelings at others' unwillingness:

    Matt. 23:37 ¶ “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing!
     
  13. HeirofSalvation

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    Yours is Post no. 11....in a "conversation" which did not, at that point even exist.....In a forum such as this, all are presumably invited to respond and inject themself at will. I have a question for you....At precisely what point or post were you personally invited to join what appears to be your private conversation?

    You would not (in fact)
    to hear how that is a false dichotomy.....I will not do your homework for you. You have attempted to engage in some form of deductive argument already, (a Reductio ad absurdum) it is also flawed in that it poses a false dichotomy....I need not attempt to convice you of how it poses a false dichotomy, it is enough, for my purposes, that it be challenged on that basis and any thinking individuals will think it through themself. I will give you this hint though.....It has something to do with my first post about "power" having nothing to do with the subject....HINT HINT, WINK, WINK.

    You know already that it is
    , (are the signifigantly more Christ-like than I ALWAYS so intellectually dis-honest I wonder??)
    Don't play rhetorical games with words when you are already clearly outclassed. That being said.....I admit and own unequivocally my often "arrogant" demeanor. It is a struggle which is VERY hard for me to control...I am extremely impatient with what are perceived by me to be sophomoric arguments....You must understand, the first post I ever saw from you was a Straw-man about God not having the "power" to accomplish a certain thing.....Your initial question about why you are guilty of a "false dichotomy" centers on this.

    I do own and admit, that I often portray a "tone" which is less than utterly humble and it is not always particularly "God-glorifying"....this is because I have very little patience for logically fallacious arguments and your initial post to Yeshua was the very definition of it.....that being said: Search please, your own purposes in making your statement about this, as it might be equally un-productive (at least as arriving upon truth is concerned) as it might be a form of "well-poinsoning" in that you have merely pointed out the obvious: Namely, that I often sound like an arrogant Arse....but it still does not negate either the truth or falsehood of any of my possible claims....and it fails to answer how God's "power" or ability is in any way involved. You are pointing out personal flaws in order to deflect from your.....by my count:

    3 Informal logic fallacies:

    1.) Straw-Man
    2.) Well-Poisoning
    3.) Shifting burden of Proof

    I leave it to you to GOOGLE those, and respond, as I will not do your homework for you.

    Debateable itself....but, you have answered none of my questions....I have already tacitly posed many of the answers to your post, when I pointed out to you that YOU, YOU ALONE, YOU (as a corporation of one), YOU, as an Independent moral agent, mentioned God's "power" to accomplish a thing....it is not upon the onus of Yeshua to whom you posed that idea to answer....it is upon you to explain what you think God's Power to be.

    You are a "Pastor"....at least acc. your screen-name....and as such, I would assume that the hard-working people from whom you extract your salary, no doubt, have a right to an elder capable of holding his own ground against a formally-non-educated Prison-Guard such as myself...I would maintain that the hard-working people from whom you extract your salary, can expect you to be able to figure out for yourself how your un-solicited and un-warranted reference to God's "Power" is even remotely relevant to the questions heretofore posed.
     
    #13 HeirofSalvation, Jun 11, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 11, 2012
  14. TadQueasy

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    How can posting a message on a public MESSAGE board be jumping into a conversation that did not include someone? If you want a private conversation then do so through email or private messages.
     
  15. 12strings

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    There are actually more problems with this verse than you have stated, and no matter what one's theological position on election the problems remain:

    1. "God desires all to be saved." (This is biblical)
    2. Not all are saved. (this is also biblical)
    3. For a Cal, God for some purpose we do not understand, desires all men to be saved, but actually chooses only to save some. (imperfect illustration: God sees everyone drowning, and throws life rings to only some.)
    4. For a non-cal, God Desires all to be saved, but has GREATER desire to respect their free-will. (imperfect illustration: A Dad sees his toddler running in the street, and begs him to come back, but does not physically remove the child from danger because that would violate the child's free will).

    Admittedly, both of these scenarios are disturbing...but both must deal with facts #1&2.
     
  16. GBC Pastor

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    I was invited into the conversation in post #5 when Yeshua1 offered his opinion on something I had previously stated.

    Based on that opinion which he offered I asked for further clarification in trying to understand his point of view. (Please note I said "his" point of view).

    My mistake. I thought you were actually attempting to debate when you joined this conversation, had I known you were merely trolling I would have ignored you.

    This must be the prison guard in you here...no doubt garnered from a career in which you can run your mouth at those who are not in a position to shut you up. Which further reveals itself in a board such as this where you can puff yourself up and act superior from the safety of your computer.

    These are the fall back positions of anyone who has no ability to actually engage in thoughtful debate of the topic.

    Bitter much?

    12strings: Thank you for a thoughtful and intelligent response. I certainly agree that there are "tensions" that must be dealt with in either view.
     
  17. HeirofSalvation

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    GBC:

    The Onus of the point is that you are IMO creating a false dichotomy by making it an "either/or" situation....you initially made the statement that God would not have the "power" to save whom he desires...and suggested that that was according to Yeshua.

    Whether it was intentional or not....this created a Straw-Man...When you bring something up for the first time, and then ask:

    "Is that REALLY what you are trying to say"...it makes for a straw-man.

    You must understand that it is a rather harsh implicit accusation of heresy to suggest that Yeshua would doubt God's power.
     
    #17 HeirofSalvation, Jun 12, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 12, 2012
  18. Iconoclast

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    Sorry 12 strings....

    this is not biblical at all.
    This is not taught in the bible at all.

    No again...God sees everyone as already dead,already drowned....jumps in pulls out a multitude,quickens them, gives them life,
     
  19. agedman

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    Thank you Icon, you got to the points before I did.

    God never promised to save everybody.

    God has no obligation to save anybody.

    God divinely chooses for His own purpose who His sheep are, and all the rest are unknown to Him; Christ said "I never knew you."

    Just because "God is Love" it doesn't mean that "God does Love." God hated Esau.
     
  20. 12strings

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    1 Timothy 2:3-4: This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

    1. Sorry Icon, I'm going with the Apostle Paul on this one. (btw, "all men" in greek there means "all & Men")

    2. I realize that illustration is inadequate, but I used it because it is one that is often used by people. Your illustration much better describes the biblical situation.
     
    #20 12strings, Jun 12, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 12, 2012

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