Duty Faith

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Rippon, Oct 11, 2014.

  1. Rippon

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    This is addressed to the Primitive Baptists among us especially. And any Gospel Standard folks who may also be present are welcomed to join in the discussion.

    The term duty-faith was coined by Gospel Standard folks in the 1830s. It was meant as a term of derision. They thought it was wrong for people to be told to repent and believe when people do not have the power or ability to do such. They derided the Christian world which believed that all have the obligation to repent and believe. They ridiculed those who believed in duty faith and repentance as "Fullerites." So when Charles Spurgeon came along and preached that people everywhere should turn from sin and rebellion and yield to the claims of Christ --cries of "Fullerism" came from the Gospel Standard camp.

    So I want PBs to respond to my inquiry. Do you believe that everyone is under the command of God to repent and believe?
     
  2. pinoybaptist

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    No.

    How could a God who speaks things into existence and with one word set the laws of chemistry, physics, and astrophysics and biology in place for man to discover and interpret, do anything as to command repentance from somebody spiritually dead to things of God ? Doesn't He know it ?

    Do you believe all men are spiritually dead until regenerated, or do you, as many Arminians do, believe that fallen man is not really totally depraved and spiritually dead ?
     
    #2 pinoybaptist, Oct 11, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 11, 2014
  3. Rippon

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    Some are never regenerated --so they remain spiritually dead and will go through the Second Death.

    Your premise is flawed --so your conclusion is also not logical. I believe that every human being is pervasively corrupt and therefore spiritually dead until and unless God resurrects them unto eternal life. But thanks be to God He makes some of us alive with Christ though formerly dead in our sins(Col. 2:13). In John 5:21 it tells us that "the Son gives life to whom He is pleased to give it."
     
  4. Rippon

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    I will quote from By His Grace And For His Glory by Thomas J. Nettles. Dr. Nettles seeks to absolve John Gill of the wrong-headed thinking of those who sought to follow Gill. However Dr. Gill did not believe what his later adherents stood for with respect to the subject-at-hand.

    "...Gill's purpose is to highlight man's responsibility for that which is available to him. None is condemned specifically for not believing in Christ who never heard of Christ. Rather, men are condemned justly for their sins. If one has never heard the gospel, he stands condemned --but not for rejection of Christ. Nor does he die eternally for not believing that Christ died for him...

    Indeed, some might ask, is it the duty of all men to love the Lord? Absolutely! Because they are the creatures of his making, enjoy the care of his providence, and are supplied by him with the blessings of life; therefore all men must joyfully love the Lord...

    Gill even affirms that it is the duty of all men who hear the Word to obey iy it, notwithstanding their moral inability to do so." (p.95)
     
  5. pinoybaptist

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    yeah ? wherever did I say the opposite ?


    good.
    Yes.
    which is the elect, and only they.
    do you disagree ?
     
  6. PreachTony

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    As a non-PB lurking on this thread, I have a question. I know we've danced around the topic before in discussions between pinoy and myself, but I'm seeing an opportunity to truly hammer out some finer points in the discussion.

    How does someone holding to your interpretation of scripture balance the idea that John 5:21 refers only to "the Elect," when:

    2 Peter 3:9 says the Lord is "not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

    Mark 8:34 says "And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me."

    Titus 2:11 says "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men."

    Jesus first recorded words of ministry (having started preaching) were "Repent, for the kingdom of Heaven is at hand." (Matt 4:17)

    I only ask because, to me, the scripture seems to indicate that the word has now been made available to all, the Jew and the Gentile have both been granted opportunity. God claims in His own word to be "no respecter of persons," so our nationality, ethnicity, cultural background, income status, etc. has nothing to do with it.
     
  7. pinoybaptist

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    I am no apologist for John Gill, or Calvin, or even Elder Gowen who said things about Calvin which NOT EVERY PRIMITIVE BAPTIST BELIEVE REALLY HAPPENED IN THE MANNER AND CONTEXT OF THAT STORY RE SERVETUS which is really the bottom line why your friend started this issue with PB's.

    Good. (bolding mine).

    so far, so good. (bolding mine).

    I don't think so if by all men is meant both elect and unelect.

    If one's name was written in God's mind (the book of life) from the foundation of the world, as in Revelation 17:8, then that one is of the elect, and had his sin atoned for already by the blood of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world (see Rev 13:8 in relation and harmony with 1 Peter 1:18-20), quote:

    8 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; 19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

    The elect was never bound for hell, unlike the non-elect.
    First, because in eternity past, from the foundation of the world, in God's mind, they have already been atoned for as good as done by the Son in whom the Father had absolute faith would undertake the painful death in the atonement.
    The blood of the Lamb of Calvary, shed in time, was as good as shed before the foundation of the world.
    That is the basis why God was able to take Enoch and Elijah to heaven, prior to the blood at Calvary.



    Disagree. It is the duty of all men to whom the Lord has revealed Himself to love Him. We are talking DUTY here. Not natural tendencies. This duty is taught and instilled.

    Again, if this "all men" is sweepingly inclusive of both regenerate and unregenerate I absolutely disagree. In regards to the unregenerate, it is like taking a cadaver to a beautiful spot, like the Grand Canyon, preaching to the cadaver about the glory and excellence of God as manifested in His creation, and expecting the cadaver to submit Himself to this great and wonderful God.
     
  8. pinoybaptist

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    This question has been discussed many times in this board, really, and not only between PB's and non PB's but also between Calvinists and non-Calvinists. I believe if I remember correctly I addressed this somewhere in this forum.

    The 2nd letter is a follow up to Peter's first letter. If you look at the introduction in the first letter, Peter plainly calls these strangers " Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: .......

    This tenor pretty much continued into the second letter, and if you go to the verse before the one you quoted above, you see that he was speaking to the people he addressed as elect in the first letter, about the second coming of Christ, and apparently they were apprehensive about it, because of false preachings and teachings they have heard, and so he tells them that God is not forgetting his promises, but is patient with them (to us-ward), because he wants every one of his own to come to repentance concerning Himself (God), so as not to perish (in this time world) by way of being misled away from the truths of God.
    Perish, in the scripture, does not always refer to eternal destruction or perishing.
    Lack of knowledge can also lead to perishing as in being led away by false preachings.
    Somewhere in Scripture it says: My people are destroyed (in earlier KJ translations, if I recall correctly, it says, "perish") for lack of knowledge (Hosea 4:6).

    "Whoever" is not simply a sweeping statement.
    It doesn't mean Jesus didn't know who among the crowd belonged to Him.
    It's similar to the way he answered the question "who shall betray Him".
    He said "he that dippeth his bread in the sop, with me" or something similar to that.


    Correct. But what salvation is this ?
    eternal ?
    timely ?
    True.
    As should be the call of everyone to everyone they preach the gospel to.
    Repentance is a change of mind on who Jesus is.
    In that case, I believe he was calling the people to repent or have a change of mind about how to attain the kingdom of heaven.

    PreachT, I have said this before and say it again.
    There is no OPPORTUNITY to be saved, in the eternal sense.
    The cross is past, won't happen again.
    The blood is shed, won't happen again.
    The tomb is empty, won't be occupied by a dead Jesus again.
    Satan has been judged, and his minions, and the unbelieving (un-elect) world along with him, and promulgation of sentence is coming at the Great White Throne.

    correct.
    that is what Judaists, then and now, still don't understand.
    among some of the things Jesus called for the Jews who are His to repent of.
     
  9. Rippon

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    It is the duty, or obligation, for all people to turn to Christ = to repent and believe. Of course they can't do it because of their sin and natural state. But that does not absolve them of their duty.


    See above. It is indeed the duty of all who hear the Word to obey it --regardless of their moral inability to do it. May cannot obey the laws of the land which are on a much lower plane that this subject --yet many fail to do so though it is their duty. It is the responsibility of everyone to turn from their sins to Christ and believe in Him alone for salvation. They have no excuse for not obeying what is their duty. They have no excuse. They will not be able to complain to God on the great Judgment Day and say :"But I wasn't able to comply with what you commanded. I had no ability to carry out what you demanded of me." No excuses are valid.
     
    #9 Rippon, Oct 13, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 14, 2014
  10. pinoybaptist

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    get your statements in order, rip, like I did one of mine to you,

    Is it the duty of all men, whether they hear the word or not, to run to God, or is it not.
    Is your second paragraph or sentence a clarification of the first ?
     
  11. Rippon

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    I am not able to quote you because of some internet problem.

    Both of my paragraphs are speaking to the same issue. I have been exceedingly clear about my beliefs.
     
  12. pinoybaptist

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    and I of mine.
     
  13. Earth Wind and Fire

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    But you (as a PB) are to be shunned....all because your beliefs don't lined up with Calvinism. No wonder so many revile the movement. Heaven forbid you would be so bold as to correct them....they are the standard of all Christian orthodoxy after all. :rolleyes::rolleyes:
     
  14. Rippon

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    A "movement" suggests growth, momentum -- a forward progression. Do the Primitive Baptists indicate those elements?
    The standard is the Word of God. The Primitive Baptists comply with it to a degree and deviate with it in numerous ways. No group is the standard of perfection. You take a lot of pride in your Welsh-Calvinistic-Methodist lineage. I dare say your forebears would take grave issue with quite a few of your doctrinal departures.
     
  15. pinoybaptist

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    If I understand correctly, you have no contact at all with Primitive Baptists, except the relatively rare and few you have with EWF and myself.
    so would you care to explain how you are able to be an "expert" on the subject of our people and our doctrines ?
    How do you think we have deviated (bolded and blue above) and what doctrinal departures do you suppose our forbears would take grave issue with ? (bolded, purple).
     
  16. Earth Wind and Fire

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    LOL..... I'm part Welsh so my for-bearers go back to the original "Baptist"Christians....and the rest back to Constantine, so I wonder which ones he is referencing?

    But my friend & brother in Christ, please recognize this as a veiled slight that has no impact on the conversation. My own personal decision is to end this conversation & thus retain both my dignity & composure. I suggest the "Ignore Feature" when the name calling begins....some just cant restrain themselves apparently.
     
  17. pinoybaptist

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    My respect for Rippon has not gone down, brother. I have always considered him likewise respectful towards me. Except, of course, if he resorts to the same tactics as the "other" one who is no more than an immature brat trying to act like an adult.
    THAT one I already put in the trash can.
     
  18. Earth Wind and Fire

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    Sometimes Brother Tim, when I hear the negative posts that get generated, my mind thinks of this,(Romans 1:22) “Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools."
     
  19. Zaac

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    Pinoy, do PBs believe the Great Commission?
     
  20. pinoybaptist

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    No. Not as it is generally taught, preached or believed. Many of us view those instructions by the Lord as not being specifically for the church, but for the apostles. That those who believe and are baptized shall be saved in the gospel sense, not the redemption and salvation that Christ already secured. We believe those whom He redeemed are scattered all over this time world and the Lord's purpose in sending out His apostles is for them to gather into a church those He effectually called.
     

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