Earthly Messianic Kingdom

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by OldRegular, Mar 10, 2005.

  1. OldRegular

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    Dispensationalism denies that the church is included in prophecy. Rather, the claim is made that Jesus Christ came to establish the Messianic kingdom for the Jews, that they rejected Him, and that He established the Church instead [Herman Hoyt, a dispensationalist, in The Millennium, Four Viewpoints, by Clouse, pages 84-88]. The Church is often referred to as the ‘mystery parenthesis’ form of the Kingdom; mystery in that there is no prophecy in the Old Testament regarding the Church and parenthesis in that God found it necessary to interrupt His program for the Jews because their leaders rejected Jesus Christ as the Messiah and He was unable to establish the Messianic kingdom.

    My question is: Where does Scripture present a record of Jesus Christ offering an earthly kingdom to the Jews?
     
  2. James_Newman

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    This is I believe what would be referred to by dispensationalists like myself as hyper-dispensationalism. Jesus Christ came to do exactly what He did. The idea that God is finished with the Jews and has replaced them with the Church is rather far-fetched. It is true that there is no apparent prophetic indication of a church-age in the old testament, but that doesn't mean that God has somehow had to rethink His strategy. Most dispensationalists see that Israel is still going to be central to God's plan in the end times, and I'm sure that God knew it before the foundation of the world. The church is not the kingdom, the kingdom is still to come.
     
  3. OldRegular

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    Well dispensationalists can't seem to find a passage of Scripture that teaches a pre-trib removal of the Church. I suppose they are unable to find a passage that shows where Jesus Christ offering an earthly kingdom to the Jews?
     
  4. James_Newman

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    There are surely passages that teach a pre-trib removal of the church, but they are ignored because they teach a conditional rapture. We like to believe that God got mad at Israel for not keeping His commandments, so He took all their goodies away and gave them to us without any warnings whatsoever. So your right, there is no verse that says Jesus offered them the kingdom when He came the first time, it isn't so. He came to die for the sins of the world, of course.

    Any time Jesus was questioned about the kingdom, He did not correct the idea that He was going to reign on the earth, just the idea that He was going to reign then.

    John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

    Acts 1
    6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
    7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

    But they were assuredly promised an earthly kingdom:
    Psalm 132:11 The LORD hath sworn in truth unto David; he will not turn from it; Of the fruit of thy body will I set upon thy throne.

    Who is referred to by thy? Why David, of course. Where is David's throne? It is in Jerusalem.

    Jer 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.

    Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
     
  5. OldRegular

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    Jesus Christ only talked about one kingdom, the Kingdom of God. As you noted above Jesus Christ stated that My kingdom is not of this world. Did He mean what He said? Also please note that the Apostle Paul tells us in 1Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

    So we see Jesus Christ saying that His Kingdom, the only kingdom of which he spoke, the Kingdom of God, is not of this world and the Apostle Paul stating that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. That apparently means that the Kingdom of God is a spiritual kingdom in the New Heavens and Earth [Revelation 21, 22].
     
  6. James_Newman

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    Apparently you just ignored the rest of His words. He said now is my kingdom not from hence. What does this mean? Is this Jesus admitting that He was going to set up an earthly kingdom, but since the Jews rejected him, now it is going to be a spiritual kingdom? Or is it not yet time for His earthly kingdom now?
     
  7. OldRegular

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    You haven't shown me where he offered an earthly kingdom that was rejected by the Jews.
     
  8. James_Newman

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    So you don't know what now means in that verse? Your implying that Jesus came to set up His kingdom. I'm saying He came to die on a cross and preach the coming kingdom. Which is it?
     
  9. DeafPosttrib

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    To dispensationalists: Please define what 'kingdom of God/heaven' means?

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  10. Pastor Larry

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    The OT is replete with references to an earthly kingdom. In fact, it is the only kind of kingdom that existed and the kind of kingdom that was prophesied. The kingdom of God/heaven is the rule of Christ on this earth.

    Before continuing this discussion, you need to read Alva J. McClain, The Greatness of the Kingdom. It will answer most of hte questions that are being asked here.
     
  11. DeafPosttrib

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    Pastor Larry,

    You saying, OT metioned about earthly kingdom.

    How about Daniel chapter 4 and 7 mentioned, kingdom, do these saying, it will be last for a thousand years?

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  12. DeafPosttrib

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    You do really need a clarify verse to support your comment.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  13. OldRegular

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    My question is still: Where does Scripture present a record of Jesus Christ offering an earthly kingdom to the Jews? And similarly where does Scripture say that the Jews rejected such an offer/
     
  14. Dave

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    To follow this line of reasoning you would have to assume that all children of Abraham were of the promise. It is in the New Testament that we get the clarification about the children of the promise being by faith, not birth.
     
  15. Ed Edwards

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    Guess: //The Church is often referred to as the ‘mystery parenthesis’ form of the Kingdom; mystery in that there is no prophecy in the Old Testament regarding the Church and parenthesis in that God found it necessary to interrupt His program for the Jews because their leaders rejected Jesus Christ as the Messiah and He was unable to establish the Messianic kingdom.//

    Reality: 1 Peter 1:20 (KJV1611 Edition):

    Who verily was foreordeined
    before the foundation of the world,
    but was manifest in these last times for you.


    Christ's sacrifice for the Church was determined
    by God before the foundation of the world,.
    By contrast, God's promises for Israel, that only
    comes from the foundation of the world.
    The Israel parenthesis is in the Church Plan!

    Heb 4:3 (KJV1611):
    For we which haue beleeued do enter into rest, as hee said, As I haue sworne in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest, although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

    Heb 9:26 (KJV1611):
    For then must hee often haue suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world, hath he appeared to put away sinne by the sacrifice of himselfe.
     
  16. OldRegular

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    Nothing hear answers the questions:
    1. Where does Scripture present a record of Jesus Christ offering an earthly kingdom to the Jews?
    2. Where does Scripture say that the Jews rejected such an offer?
     
  17. Ed Edwards

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    These are bad questions. There is no need to answer
    them. Thier answer, if known, would not edify
    anybody.

    Anyway, i had an answer i've been working on
    all week. Maybe next week i'll have an
    answer.

    All: remember it is lots easier to ask
    bad questions than to find good answers.

    Here is ed's good question of the day:

    Are you ready for the pretribulation week raptute/resurrection? [​IMG]
     
  18. OldRegular

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    These are bad questions. There is no need to answer
    them. Thier answer, if known, would not edify
    anybody.

    Anyway, i had an answer i've been working on
    all week. Maybe next week i'll have an
    answer.

    All: remember it is lots easier to ask
    bad questions than to find good answers.

    Here is ed's good question of the day:

    Are you ready for the pretribulation week raptute/resurrection? [​IMG]
    </font>[/QUOTE]So a question dispensationalists can't answer is a bad question. I guess that is the reason we have been unable to get an answer to the question: Where in the Scripture that states there will be a pretrib removal of the Church from the world? :D

    By the way,"rapture" is a Romanist word. I suggest we ban it. :D
     
  19. Ed Edwards

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    You willing
    to let "Lucifer" go with it?
     
  20. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    Nobody had any meaningful comments.
    We can assume i spake God's truth here, eh?
     

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