Eating analogous with believing

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by The Biblicist, Jun 4, 2013.

  1. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
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    Isa. 55:1 ¶ Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.
    2 Wherefore do ye spend money for that which is not bread? and your labour for that which satisfieth not? hearken diligently unto me, and eat ye that which is good, and let your soul delight itself in fatness.
    3 Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.


    To hunger and thirst = desire
    To drink and eat = satisfying that desire

    drink and food = sustances for physical life

    The analogous application here is in verse 3 "incline your ear and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live"


    Jn. 6:34 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.
    35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.


    How does Christ tell them to satisfy their desires for this bread? "he that cometh to meSHALL NEVER HUNGER.and he that believeth on me SHALL NEVER THIRST"


    Re 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

    How does one satisfy their thirst for eternal life? "come....come...let him that is athirst come...take the water of life freely" To "come" means to believe in Christ and that is what satisfies their thirst (desires) and obtains SPIRITUAL life - the water of life.

    Jer 15:16 Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O LORD God of hosts.

    Joh 6:68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
    69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.


    What did Peter identify as "the words of Life"? Answer - "we BELEIVE and are SURE that THOU ART THE CHRIST THE SON OF THE LIVING GOD."

    Peter partook, eat of the words of life by faith not by injesting literally words

    Jn. 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
    48 I am that bread of life
    .

    How did Jesus instruct them to partake of "OF LIFE" found in Him as bread?Not by injesting his literal flesh but "he that BELEVING ON ME"

    1. Hunger, thirst = desire for physical or spiritual things
    2. eat, drink = partaking of physical or spiritual things

    Jesus makes the cross over from the physical to the Spiritual in this analogy TWICE before verses 50-58 and then bluntly tells his disicples that his words were not to be understood in the MATERIAL or PHYSICAL sense but in the SPIRITUAL. Then Peter demonstrates the cross over from physcial showing he understood that he partook of Christ through the "WORDS of life" by faith.
     
  2. BobRyan

    BobRyan
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    Bread analogous to teaching.


    Matt 16
    11 How is it that you do not understand that I did not speak to you concerning bread? But beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees.”
    12 Then they understood that He did not say to beware of the leaven of bread, but of the teachingof the Pharisees and Sadducees.


    Deut 8
    3 And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the Lord doth man live


    The Gospel of John

    Chapter 1
    1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

    Rev 19
    13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.



    John 6 Manna - the Bread of Heaven. Literal vs spiritual.

    28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
    29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
    30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?
    31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.


    (The unbelievers begin on the note of literal bread - in response to Christ's focus on "BELIEVING" in him)




    John 6

    32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
    33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.




    Jesus points to their Unbelief in the TRUE bread that they SEE because they are so stuck on literal bread





    34 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.
    35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
    36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.

    The Bread Jesus gives - gives LIFE to the entire world and no one thirsts or hungers after eating it. Not at ALL true in the LITERAL sense - he is trying to get the unbelievers passed the literal.

    38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

    Jesus - said he was already come down from heaven, already was the bread of heaven and they already must be eating to have life.


    41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
    42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?

    Jesus points them to the REAL objective - not eating food - but believing doctrine.

    45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

    Bread of heaven - Bread of LIFE - what is needed for eternal LIFE - compared to literal eating of literal bread from literal heaven and being literally dead.

    47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
    48 I am that bread of life.
    49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
    50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.


    Living Bread

    51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

    "I AM the living bread" not - some day I will be the living bread.
    "I CAME down from heaven" not someday I will come down from heaven.
    "If any man EAT" - not "Someday in the future at the last supper eat"



    The unbelievers take the whole thing too literally - but they do get one valid point correctly - they do not say "some day in the future we must eat him and we don't want to " they say that they know He is talking about what they must do NOW.

    52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

    On this day the unbelievers talk about biting Christ - but do not.
    The believing disciples do not bite Christ and do not talk about doing so.



    Jesus makes it all clear they must act NOW for NOW HE Is bread.

    53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
    54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
    55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.


    58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.


    And as soon as they say "this is a hard SAYING - who can hear it" -

    Jesus responds with the answer to the symbols.


    61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
    62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
    63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
    64 But there are some of you that believe not.


    And the remaining - believing disciples get the point clearly.


    67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
    68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.


    The UNbelievers take the point too literally in their rejection of Christ's teaching. As John already showed us in Chapter 3.


    3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
    4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  3. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
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    The "leaven" represents false teaching/doctrine but the "bread" represents the Word of God. Christ is not the "teaching" of God but the "Word" of God. The bread has to do with His person but teaching has to do with his doctrine.

    Your quote of Deuteronomy demonstrates that "bread" equals the inspired word of God or those words preceding from God's mouth (inspiration). Your quotation of John 1:1, 14 demonstrate it represents "the word" of God not "teaching."

    His "teaching" did not go to Calvary - It was His PERSON that went to calvary. His "teaching" did not rise from the grave - His PERSON rose from the grave. The gospel is not about His "teaching" but about what he did as a PERSON. He, his person is the "bread of life" not His teaching.

    Teaching is an action verb. "the Word" is a noun. Teaching may be based on the Word or it may not be but "the Word of God" is always "the word of God" regardless of someone's "teachings."

    We are not saved by His "teaching" but saved by His Person as it is His Person that satisfies sin. His "teaching" does not satisfy our sins.
     
    #3 The Biblicist, Jun 4, 2013
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  4. BobRyan

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    In John 6 Christ explains the teaching of John 6 as "My WORDS are Spirit and it is the Spirit that gives life" John 6:63. Peter responds with that same point "you HAVE the Words of Life". John 6:68

    John 8 "you shall know the TRUTH and the truth shall set you free".

    John 17:17 "Sanctify them through Thy Truth - Thy WORD is Truth".

    Romans 10 "Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God"

    Deut 8:3 "Man does not live by bread alone - but by every WORD that comes from the mouth of God" - is the lesson in God's Word about the "bread from heaven" and is the focus of Christ in John 6.

    As Christ said in Matt 7 the one who claims to believe Him must act on His Word or it is pointless. In John 6 the point centers around the "work of God" which Christ said - was to believe Him.

    So Christ's point in John 6 is that that we have to eat the body that is sacrificed on the cross.
     
    #4 BobRyan, Jun 4, 2013
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  5. BobRyan

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    And as soon as they say "this is a hard SAYING - who can hear it" -

    Jesus responds with the answer to the symbols.

    60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?

    61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
    62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
    63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
    64But there are some of you that believe not.
     
  6. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
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    He is not talking about His "teaching" or the content of His teaching, or His doctrine but about the proper HERMENEUTICAL MANNER of interpreting His langauge that just caused all of the commotion (vv. 51-58).

    His words can be understood in a PHYSICAL sense as in PHYSICAL food, PHYSICAL thirst, PHYSICAL hunger and PHYSCIAL coming or they can be understood in a SPIRITUAL sense as in SPIRITUAL thirst, SPIRITUAL desire, SPIRITUAL hunger or in SPIRITUAL coming by faith.

    He is declaring they are to be undestood in the SPIRITUAL sense about SPIRITUAL life rather than in the PHYSICAL sense about PHYSICAL life.

    Peter acknowleged he understood by claiming that he had the "WORDS" of Life rather than PHYSICAL sustance for PHYSICAL life. He claimed to understand that the point Jesus is making is that SPIRITUAL hunger and SPIRITUAL thirst for SPIRITUAL life is obtained by SPIRITUALLY coming to Christ in faith in HIS PERSON.
     
  7. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
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    And it has been answered over and over again that is precisely what he did say to them "the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."

    In the scriptures the words of "eateth" and "drinketh" are used to convey LITERAL MATETIAL PHYSICAL substances or used to convey SPIRITUAL NON-PHYSICAL substances.

    Isaiah 55:1-5 is a perfect example as is John 6:35. The analogous use is obvious:

    1. Hunger and thirst EQUAL physical or spiritual desires
    2. Eateth and drinketh EQUAL partaking of physical or spiritual substances
    3. coming to someone can be PHYSICAL (geographical) or SPIRITUAL (faith)

    His words are to be understood as "spiritual" not physical and "life" is obtained in understanding His words refer to the "spiritual" desires, substances, and partaking by faith as Peter clearly interprets "the words of life" to be spiritually partaking of him by faith or believing on him as the Christ, the Son of the Living God.

    You can't get the clear analogous use any clearer than in John 6:35

    34 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.
    35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
    36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.


    1. They wanted this bread of life RIGHT THEN - v. 34

    2. Jesus identified himself as this bread of life RIGHT THEN - v. 35a

    3. Coming and believing in him RIGHT THEN was Christ's response to FOREVER satisfy their hunger and thirst for that bread of life. Thus they are told to partake of that bread by faith right then and there.

    4. They saw and refused to satisfy their hunger and thirst by partakng of the bread of life by faith - v. 36.

    Can't get it clearer that Jesus is using eating and drinking, hungering and thirsting as words to convey SPIRITUAL truths rather than PHYSICAL food.

    Peter understood it completely as he identiied the "WORDS OF LIFE" that must be partaken of by faith:

    thou hast the words of eternal life.
    69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.


    It is Rome's interpetation that has the greater problem. Jesus says that one's hunger and thirst for eternal life can be IMMEDIATELY satisfied by faith in Him as the bread of life - Jn. 6:34-35; 48-49 BEFORE he goes to the cross and he says this repeatedly from John 3:16, 5:24, ETC. Hence, eternal life can be equally obtained by faith in Christ as the spiritual bread of life as it can by Rome's interpretation of Christ as literal physical material food. However, Rome's interpretation of John 8:51 denies both equally.
     
  8. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
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    Isa. 55:1 ¶ Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.
    2 Wherefore do ye spend money for that which is not bread? and your labour for that which satisfieth not? hearken diligently unto me, and eat ye that which is good, and let your soul delight itself in fatness.
    3 Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.


    Do you really think that Isaiah was talking about LITERAL PHYSICAL food when he asked them to "come" and "eat" "bread"??? Isn't this a clear example of the analgous use of PHYSICAL food to convey SPIRITUAL food? Isn't this an analgous use of "come" to mean believe in Him? Isn't this an example of the analgous use of physical "life" sustences to convey how to obtain SPIRITUAL "life" - "your soul shall live"?

    Isn't this exactly how Christ uses food language in John 6:35-36, thus providing the contextual basis, herneutical principle to interpret his later food words in John 6:51-58?????
     

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