Ecumenical

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by msinave, Apr 21, 2005.

  1. msinave

    msinave
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    I have seen this word quite a bit on these boards, usually "spoken" of in a derisive manner. Will you all please explain (kindly) what is objectionable about it? I confess I had to look it up in the dictionary and the meaning seems in line with what every Christian should be doing; bringing the world to Christ. Looking forward to your responses. Thanks.
     
  2. Gold Dragon

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    The word ecumenical comes from the greek word oikoumenikos meaning the inhabited world.

    Many baptists on this board subscribe to the Doctrine of Separation that invovles separating from non-Christian apostates as well as Christians in error or Christians that associate with those in error. Ecumenism or unity is at odds with this doctrine.

    Ecumenicalism is also used in some contexts to describe unity among all world religions in a relativistic sense. However, among non-Unitarian Chrisitans, it usually represents the pursuit of unity among the different Christian groups in the world that was desired by Jesus and Paul.

     
  3. donnA

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    The problem being, not all christians agree with this verse. When they do not we are not to worship with them or serve with them on a joint ministry. No where in scripture are we told we must join with those who change or prevert the gospel and yet still call their teachings christian. There has to be a place to draw the line that seperates us from those who preach an untrue version of the gospel.
     
  4. Bro. James

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    "...an untrue version of the gospel"...

    Paul, the Apostle, said that if anyone, even an angel from heaven bring any other gospel than that which he preached; let them be "ANATHEMA".

    That seems to exclude those who would participate in an "ecumenical" movement.

    The basic problem as far as "True Baptists" are concerned is the re-gathering of the daughters of Rome by their mother. "True Baptists" did not come out of Rome nor are they part of the so-called Reformation. "True Baptists" have died rather than bow to Rome or her daughters.

    Thank God for the preservation of His remnant through the "gates of hell". The Bride is still out there--without spot or blemish or any such thing.

    Jesus did not come to this world to bring peace and prosperity. Following Him will separate country and family.
    Selah,

    Bro. James
     
  5. Gold Dragon

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    And for that, I am glad for Christians who are dilligent in trying to preserve the unity of the body even when we change or pervert the gospels to preach an untrue version of the gospel and still call it Christian.

    I know this is offensive to some here that we could be the one in error, but my intention is not to point fingers at anyone in particular but to encourage us to apply the same standard to ourselves that we apply to others.

    I agree that others are in error. But I also think that we are too. Through dilligence and the qualities Paul talks about here, the body can help each other to correct our errors.

     
  6. Gold Dragon

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    Agreed the followers of the Prince of Peace may not experience peace from those who do not follow Him. But the Prince of Peace did pray for his followers to be united in peace to be a witness of the Prince of Peace.

     
  7. IveyLeaguer

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    To me the definitive factor is ... who is your God? Who is the God you serve? I desire to be in unity with all those who serve the Jesus Christ of the Bible, as the Lord prayed, "Father, that they may be one as you and I are one, etc..

    The Bible says we should not be united with those who serve any other god, whether it be a false Jesus Christ or some other god.

    Question: Since every person who has ever lived has a god, how do we go about determining who we are to unite with?
     
  8. Gold Dragon

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    Agreed. The disagreements between protestants and Catholics has always been about soteriology and not Christology.

    Although, I don't think you meant your above post to say that you would be supportive of ecumenism with Catholics. ;)
     
  9. donnA

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    So you would welcome the untrue gospel of the JW's, or the Mormons, how about 'christian' churches that teach salvation by baptism, or how about the ones who claim Jesus isn't God but is a god, or number of false techings going around? How about the name it and claim it bunch, like Benny Hinn, want to fellowship with their type, work ministry with them while they teach their falsness, be associated with the falsness they teach? Be supportive of it by being there?
    Nope sorry, all that claim the name 'christian' are not christian in doctrine. And that is unequally yolked when you join with them.
     
  10. Soulman

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    Posted by Gold Dragon: And for that, I am glad for Christians who are dilligent in trying to preserve the unity of the body even when we change or pervert the gospels to preach an untrue version of the gospel and still call it Christian.

    Way to twist the scriptures G.D. Christ wanted us to have unity with Him as He has with the Father. That means they must be agreed. God seeks us to worship in spirit and TRUTH! The ecumenicisim of today is not based on truth. In fact it is designed to do away with sound doctrine. Why? To build a one world false religion that is so perverted God will leave it here at the rapture.

    2 Timothy 4:3
    For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

    We are told to grow up and get our doctrine straight. Yes, nobody has it perfect. But some have the basics correct.

    1 Tim. 1:4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.

    Ephesians 4:14
    That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

    We are commanded not to fellowship with known false christianity!

    2 Corinthians 6:17
    Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

    We are commanded to adhere to no other truth than that which God set forth in His word.

    1 Timothy 1:3
    As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine,

    2 John 1:10
    If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
     
  11. Gold Dragon

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    I didn't mention any specific groups because I wasn't interested in pointing out the errors of others and deciding whether they are "right enough" to unify with them. Some are, some maybe aren't. My point in that post was to get us to look inward and say: "maybe we don't have it all figured out either." That doesn't mean we have it all wrong. And I agree that there are definitely folks out there that have it less figured out than we do. I'm trying to get us to follow the words of Christ here.

    I know the common misinterpretation is to say this passage is about not judging. But I believe it is about right judging that involves judging ourselves first, so that we can have the gentleness, humility and grace needed to approach the errors of others.
     
  12. Gold Dragon

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    I think this is a vital passage that we need to delve deeper into to discover the character of the unity that Christ desires in us. Truth is definitely important for us to be united in. But is that really the type of unity Christ is talking about here. Let's look a little deeper.

    So Jesus is saying that the way He and the Father are in each other, that is the way we are to be in Him. I think this is one of the most powerful passages that Jesus shares. We should probably look at the ways God and Jesus are "in each other".

    A few chapters back in John 14, John spends a whole chapter highlighting Jesus' teachings on the relationship between Jesus and the Father.

    That was a long an powerful passage and I skipped a few parts to highlight a few but I encourage you to read the whole chapter. How is the Son in the Father and the Father in the Son? That is the character of the unity that Christ wants in us.

    I'm not interested in ecumenism that does away with sound doctrine. I'm interested in ecumenism that brings both sides towards greater biblical orthodoxy.

    I'm also not interested in one world religion. But I am interested in bringing the world to one Christ.
     
  13. Gold Dragon

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    Another great passage highlighting the relationship between the Son and Father is John 1.

     
  14. av1611jim

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    My thoughts.
    Jesus was approached one day by one of His disciples who told Him about a group who were preaching Jesus but did not follow the same bunch who had been with Christ from the beginning. "They are not of our bunch," was the charge made against them. Jesus said, "He that is not against Me is for Me." (Loosely paraphrased)

    Later on; Paul was writing to another bunch who had contentions amongst them about another group who were evidently not preaching Christ in sincerity, but were still preaching Christ. Paul said that he would rejoice whether Christ is preached in truth or insincerily as long as Christ is preached.

    Still later, we are told to seperate from false brethren who were in error.

    My conclusion, based not just on these three, but rather on the whole tenor of the NT, is that we can be thankful that Christ is preached and even rejoice that folks are getting saved in these other churches which we see as being in error doctrinally. We should not prohibit them from preaching Christ and Him crucified. But we should not join with them if they are in error and will not reform their ways. Let them alone as Jesus said.

    The unity of the faith is in Christ, who He is, what He did for us, and our responsibility to Him.
    We should not prevent them from what they are doing, nor should we join with them. For in joining with them, we give consent to their error. But in not preventing them, we give consent to their preaching Christ.

    JMO.

    In HIS service;
    Jim
     
  15. Soulman

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    Posted by Golden Dragon: NASB - John 17:20-21
    I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.

    Look at what the verse says:"all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us". Christ wanted us to have unity with Him as He has with the Father. That means they must be agreed.

    The scriptures you quoted from NASB Jn. 14 Doesn't come close to driving your point home. If we are to be in Christ as He is in the Father, you cannot disregard the truth.

    You also quote: "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me." How can you be one without the truth?

    The truth of scripture is the only thing that shields us from false doctrine. See my above post and actually read the scriptures for what they say and not for what you want them to say. God has no tolerance for for false doctrine and curses anyone knowingly teaching it.

    If you want to be one with Christ seek truth as the highest order. Seek God and you will find Him.

    God seeks us to worship in spirit and TRUTH!

    There is no way to mumbo jumbo your way around God's word. You are WRONG on this one G.D. Your arguement is vague and unsupported by scripture.

    Quoted by Gold Dragon: I'm also not interested in one world religion. But I am interested in bringing the world to one Christ.

    If you read your bible in context you would see that the drive to unity today IS the comming together of the false bride of Christ.
     
  16. mioque

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    "If you read your bible in context you would see that the drive to unity today IS the comming together of the false bride of Christ. "
    "
    On the other hand if that coming together of that oneworldfalseprophetreligion is only going to start happening a 1000 years from now, all those who blanketly condemn any attempt at greater unity are making fools of themselves and doing the real bride of Christ a disservice.
     
  17. Soulman

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    Look at the signs of the times. Most theologens beleive we are in the last days. I know you will say "so has every generation". But if religions are uniting out of sheer love of Christ and throwing doctrine out the window to do it, we should blanketly condemn it. It is false wether this is the gestational period of the great whore or not. It is those jumping into this false unity that are the fools! The real bride of Christ would have no part in a unity movement not based on truth.

    I am amazed that baptists are contending with this. It just goes to show you that watered down religion is everywhere.
     
  18. mioque

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    Maybe it's time to tell the story of how I ended up bungling a small attempt at Ecumenism involving my own church.
    My church has been involved in something of a feud with an extremist Calvinist church for decades.
    A number of years ago there was a meeting between different conservative churches (to get an image of the participants think Dutch Reformed meets American style Evangelical) to share ideas, experiences and to get to know eachother a little better.
    Both us and our 'rivals' were attending, as far as I know both sides saw this as an opportunity to end hostilities between us.
    The theme of the gathering was the Tower of Babel. There would be sermons by preachers and lectures by scholars.
    Our church got the request to deliver a scholar who would have to give a speech of an hour that was to be titled:"Different perspectives on the Tower of Babel".
    I got the job.
    So I spoke.

    About Athanasius Kircher the great Jesuit inventor who calculated how much brick would have been needed for the builders to reach the moon. And why trying to build the tower would have destroyed the earth before they would have reached it.
    http://www.towerofbabel.391.org/athanasiuskircher.htm

    About the Tower in the history of art as a symbol of human endeavor, both brilliant and pointless, but always megalomaniacal.

    About the interpretation of the liberals among theologians and Biblical archeologists. Which sees the Tower as a faerietale created by the Jews when they were in bondage in Babylon. Babel=Babylon, the Tower is the ziggurat at the centre of that city and the linguistic confusion mirrors the real communication problems there were between all those labourers from all over the empire who were repairing and expanding it.

    I ended with an environmentalistic retelling of the story I had recently read where the building of the tower was a metaphor for human greed.

    When I walked out afterwards I hear an elder of the Reformed church say the following to one of my own church.
    A skilled preacher that new reverend of yours, since when have you guys been ordaining women? :eek: [​IMG]

    It turned out to be absolutely impossible to explain to him that he had gotten the wrong impression. :rolleyes:
     
  19. mioque

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    "Most theologens beleive we are in the last days."
    "
    No they don't. Most theologians across the globe are staunchly amillenialist.
     
  20. IveyLeaguer

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    Quite the contrary. Regardless of how long it is before the Lord comes back, our tasks remains the same, whether it's the great commission or guarding against false doctrine and false teaching
     

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