effectual calling

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Iconoclast, Mar 26, 2011.

  1. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
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    Here is teaching on effectual calling,I recently posted this in another thread.
    This teaching comes from this book,and is used by permission from the author

    http://www.lulu.com/product/paperback/a-baptist-catechism-with-commentary/6135589

     
  2. Iconoclast

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  3. psalms109:31

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    effectual call

    This is what I see as effectual call today after the cross the bridge for man to God, I see it the way you do before Jesus is lifted up and the cross.

    Matthew 28:
    The Great Commission
    16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”


    1 Corinthians 3:16
    Don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in your midst?

    John 6:63
    The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life.

    John 14:24
    Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

    John 8:28
    So Jesus said, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me.

    John 12:32
    And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

    John 3:16
    16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

    Deuteronomy 30:19
    This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live

    1 Peter 1:23
    For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.
     
  4. menageriekeeper

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    Iconoclast. Were the apostles saved before Pentecost?
     
  5. Skandelon

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    There is much to be addressed in the post but I wanted to comment on this portion. Let's look at the verse in question:

    3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. 4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5 For we do not preach ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus' sake. 6 For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.

    1) Notice Paul does say the Gospel IS definitely being veiled to all of humanity from birth as the doctrine of Total Depravity teaches, but it only mildly states, "even if it is being veiled."

    2) Just a few verses before this passage Paul writes: 13 We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to keep the Israelites from gazing at it while the radiance was fading away. 14 But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15 Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.

    So, you can see that the temporal hardening/veiling of Israel is in view here, but even still Paul acknowledges here (as he does in Romans 11) that if they "leave their unbelief" or "turn to the Lord" the veil will be removed...the hardening will cease.

    Thus, this passage simply does not support the concept and claims to which it is applied by Calvinists.
     
  6. freeatlast

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    Very good! :thumbsup:
     
  7. freeatlast

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    Iconoclast I understand the need to defend two different calls when someone holds in predetermined salvation of those who are saved, but there is simply no scripture to support it. There is not a single verse to support two different types of calls.
    What we have is a call and some because of the hardness of heart reject the call and bring even more darkness on themselves. Read 2Thess 2:7-12 These people made a choice and God blinded them so they could not believe. We make the choince and God seals our choice which ever way we choose.
     
    #7 freeatlast, Mar 26, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 26, 2011
  8. Iconoclast

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    Hello freeatlast,
    If you listen to the sermon I posted as well as read through the articles I think you will see where there is clearly a difference. It is explained very well.
    We can interact on it after if you would like, but even if you do not embrace the teaching now, at least you will have a very accurate Idea of what the teaching is.

    Free part of what you posted is this.
    [God has already chosen]

    Free...all men and woman reject the word and gospel until God allows them to believe. When someone believes, God has opened their eyes,and ears,giving a new heart. God has already purposed to do this before time was.
    In mercy he saves us in time.
     
  9. freeatlast

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    I understand that you believe that, but I don't. I believe that we play a part in salvation. We hear and we have to choose.
     
    #9 freeatlast, Mar 26, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 26, 2011
  10. Iconoclast

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    Free,
    A believer believes...yes ,he repents yes he trusts,yes
    The question is;
    27John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven

    Our part is being brought from death to life by God.

    Free what part are we going to have when God raises us on the last day....
    Like lazarus....what was His part....what choice did he have being dead.

    Having been given life he responded when His name was called. None of the other corpses came out of the grave at that time....see what I mean?
    Did lazarus come out first,then Jesus said,oh well I guess I will choose him to come out? Free- which way makes plain sense?
     
  11. Iconoclast

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    Heres what I see there;
    14And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach

    21Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.

    22And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

    23Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

    It was a transitional period.Some Ot saints were alive when the Nt came into being.
    Spirit baptism is at Pentecost. Here they are told to receive the Spirit.

    Hope this helps, not sure what you are asking for sure, but if does not help,clarify the question somemore.
     
  12. Iconoclast

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    Here is another key section;
     
  13. freeatlast

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    Iconoclast I certainly believe those two passages, but they have no connection to this discussion. In 1Cor Paul is speaking to a group that was puffed up in pride about their supposedly spiritual condition which was brought about by the fullness of the spiritual gifts they had. It was not limited to that but most likely that carried a great weight in their pride. Every gift they had was given to them.

    In John the passage is speaking of Christ verses John as to why Jesus is outshining John in the peoples eyes and some of Johns disciples are questioning why. John replies with because it has been given Him.

    I try never to eisegete a passage and to carry these two verses over into this discussion I would have to do just that. I do agree that we are given repentance, and faith as well as a basic ability to desire more. However I do not go so far as to say we are bound to exercise those things. I believe that we have a part in the process and that is we can reject what we have been given. Read Matt 25:14-30. That is a clear teaching that all have been given enough to respond and if needed get more to be saved, but if we chose not to exercise what we have it is taken away and we are lost. We have a part in this matter.
     
  14. mandym

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  15. Iconoclast

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    What you see as arrogant is the contrast between reality and your false theological ideas.

    lets see it right here;you say-
    Where do you see in scripture that God has to offer grace to anyone?

    Where do you see that he offers grace to all?

    When Jesus was on the cross,people around the world were dying in their sins and headed for second death.without ever hearing the gospel.What verse do you believe teaches God was obligated to offer grace to them?

    The only obligation God has is to His Eternal covenant,The oath that He has declared to us in scripture. Your failure to view scripture in light of the covenants leads you away from truth...and leaves you with irrational,emotional conclusions.

    I have a friend in the jungle of indonesia....he ministers to people who were idolaters,and before he got there they did not know of the true God. His arrogant calvinism did not stop him from going into this jungle where he has gotten malaria,and dengue fever several times, much less that 90% of the island are fanatical muslims,so his life is on the line.
    His arrogant calvinism teaches him that the children of God are scattered throughout the world,so he went searching for some of the elect sheep.

    I would like you to answer the questions I have asked...with any scriptural support you believe teaches that God must offer grace to anyone.
    Furthermore I am certain that you cannot respond biblically to the posted sermons, or the articles posted. feel free to show what is posted is in error.

    The free offer of the gospel goes out all the time, it is often resisted. The effectual call is not ultimately resisted.
     
    #15 Iconoclast, Mar 27, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 27, 2011
  16. Tom Butler

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    I think it's interesting that Paul has a name for those whom God has justified. It is The Called.

    Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. These are the same people he predestinated. Every one he predestinated, he called; every one he called, without exception, he justified.

    Thus, those who are The Called and those he justified are the same. This suggests a specific call, always, uh, effectual, for those who will believe. If this is the case, then it must be distinguished from another kind of call, which is never effective.
     
  17. Iconoclast

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    Again.....this is exactly right unless someone is setting themselves as opposed to the truth of God.In the sermon posted earlier, the pastor makes the point that in all the epistles called is used of the saints who have already been effectually called.
     
  18. mandym

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    This is a strawman. I never suggested such

    Joh 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
    Joh 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.


    Prove that some died without hearing the gospel.


    Another strawman, I never suggested such nor do I believe it.

    I am talking with you. You are the one who displays the unkind arrogance against those who disagree with you. Defend yourself do not rely on the writings of others.

    And on that we can agree

    And this can on be believed by an assumption of implication
     
  19. Rippon

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    Multiplied millions have never heard the gospel of Jesus Christ. In China alone for centuries many millions heard nothing of the gospel. In Hudson Taylor's time he was rebuked by a Chinaman for the centuries that the west had the gospel but yet didn't share it with China.

    I want you to prove that every single person has heard the gospel of Christ.
     
  20. quantumfaith

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    In the words of Tom Hanks in Saving Private Ryan, "Heres how you do it". This is a good example of how you gently teach and support the position that you hold.
     

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