Elect does not mean "saved at birth"

canady

"Now therefore be ye not mockers, lest your bands be made strong: for I have heard from the Lord GOD of hosts a consumption, even determined upon the whole earth." Isa 28:22

9 "Stay yourselves, and wonder; cry ye out, and cry: they are drunken, but not with wine; they stagger, but not with strong drink.

10 For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.

11 And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed:

12 And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.

13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:

14 Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid. Isa 29:9-14

skypair

 

Proverb 18:2

peace to youraying:

 

This one is going in my book....

"YES HE REALLY SAID THIS"

 

Not eveyone will come as in this last statement. and there is no verse that guarantees anyone's Salvation. Man must be a willing participant.
2Co 8:12 For if there be first a willing mind, it is accepted according to that a man hath, and not according to that he hath not.
Those who claim to be dragged off against there will should study this passage
Question 1. Yes I am a Gentile
Question 2. To be elect or to be chosen and if chosen. Chosen for what? Am I elect. I don't truthfully know. The Jews are elect. Am I chosen yes but not apart from anyone since Christ died for the whole world and not for the particular man, or person.
1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
Question 3. Yes I know this to be true. I also know that God did draw me to Christ and that after I learned of Him I desired to be saved. The Bible tells us That we have to come to Him as a little child in humbleness.
Mar 10:15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.
Trusting in Him for everything even our faith.
Nah 1:7 The LORD is good, a strong hold in the day of trouble; and he knoweth them that trust in him.
Complete surrender of our will to His.

Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

Before all of this a true repentance of our sins.
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

It's as clear as a bell what must be done before we receive the Holy Spirit.

How men are saved.
Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

It is the faith of Jesus Christ that saves us. Not our own. Still we believe in order that we might be saved by Christ. Our belief is our willingness and doesn't guarantee our Salvation. I don't believe a man is saved until the man's faith has been tried.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Our Salvation is completely up to Christ because He is the one who made it possible. He draws us He teaches us about Him. He chose us because He died for us, that is the whole world. No one is without the possibility of Salvation.
MB

 

Being "dragged off against their will" is a misrepresentation of what reformed theology teaches. As for the passage quoted, Paul is not speaking of salvation here. The context is giving an offering of money for the support of the saints. He is urging them to do what they had promised to do.

A believer must prove he/she is worthy of salvation by enduring "trials"? After that, they are saved? Or does the perseverence of our faith prove what has already been accomplished? We persevere because we have been saved.

peace to youraying:

 

The first part of this statement is true, because not all were given by the Father to Christ, and not all will be drawn by the Father to Christ.

John 6:44 says: "No man can come to me except the Father which hath sent me draw him:.........."

But the second part is a lie, and if you think you're going to heaven, better examine what your guarantee is.

Is it any prayer you said ? Is it the fact that you think you repented of your sins ? Is it your having believed on the gospel ? Is it your holy living ? Is it your prayerfulness and your almsgiving ? Is it any work you do, or any guarantee of man ?

Or is your guarantee of your salvation the precious blood of the Lamb of Christ, His finished work at Calvary here in this plane we call time, and the will of the Father that sent His Son for you, if perchance you are indeed one of His.

Here is another lie. Where was "man" when the Son of God was hurting on the cross ? Where was "man" when the Son of Man was being stripped, humiliated, spat upon, crowned with a crown of thorns, given lashes, mocked, slapped on the face, pierced with nails and spears ?

Peter, the big talker, denied him, his friends stood afar off, the women of Jerusalem wept but could do nothing, Simon the Cyrenean had to be compelled by Roman soldiers to carry the cross part of the way, your willing participant, "man", was nowhere.

Where was "man" when the Eternal God authored salvation in eternity past ? Where was man when the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world ?

Nowhere. You were nowhere. I was nowhere. Canadyjd was nowhere. Calvin was nowhere. Arminius was nowhere. Augustine was nowhere. Paul the Apostle was nowhere. Mary the mother of Jesus was nowhere. Enoch was nowhere. Adam was nowhere. Your pastor and teacher was nowhere.

Jesus Christ alone was there, doing the Father's will, shedding His blood, being separated from the Father from which He had never been separated, abandoned by the Father with whom He shared eternity.

And now you propose that man must be a willing participant? Humanism is what that is. Elevating man to a pedestal to which he has no right.

Lies.

Double speak. If it is the faith of Jesus Christ, then it is the faith of Jesus Christ alone.

For grace to be grace, there must have been no input from the recipient, not one iota of input.

Of course, it is hard to understand this truth by those who have difficulty separating eternal salvation from temporal salvation.

 

First off, could we please get off this habit of calling people liars?! For every passage you give showing that the Father draws men, one can be given saying that ALL are drawn -- John 12:32 "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL men unto me."

As to guarantees ---- we know our Guarantee. But according to your theology, you can't know yours because you don't know how God chooses whom he does to salvation. That being the teaching of your own theology, are you now saying that you KNOW how He chooses whom He saves?? And if so, how?? How does He choose you and not me?? (And please, I am NOT asking for God's motives here -- good pleasure, etc. -- but His method). Oops, you don't know, do you. :laugh: So, without mentioning anything YOU have done or feel, how do you know you are saved??

This is true of everyone. Why would you infer that MB had said otherwise?

Again, does it make you more of a Christian to say that we lie? Is that the Spirit speaking or your spirit? And what do you suppose that says about the rest of your diatribe?

Where were we in salvation? We were foreknown of God is where we were. "God so loved the WORLD..." There would have been no reason to foreordain Christ' crucifixion unless God knew that all of us would fall into sin. Likewise, He needn't have sent Jesus to die if God was just going to "elect" whom He would. There need be no object of our belief because, according to you, belief is not a condition, right? Elect are elect regardless of how that gets carried out. I've even heard Cavlinists speculate that many elect will be saved without the gospel.

Hence, the "do nothing" religion. You can't do anything, you needn't do anything and you don't, in most cases, do anything unless in violatation of your own doctrine you pray, evangelize, live holy lives, etc. Remember, these are all for naught because God is not impressed by anything you do. In fact, so UNimpressed was He that He had to cause you "irresistibly" to do His will.

skypair

 

So you are disavowing "irresistible grace?" Good!

Actually, perserverance would be "works," right? And if we can't know we are saved/"elect," wouldn't "perservering" merely be us trying to prove we are saved/"elect?"

Jesus once said that people came into His flocks acting just like sheep. (John 10:1-5) They didn't come to the Sherherd as His sheep did. They climbed over "some other way." Have you heard the story? They now seem to hear the voice of the Shepherd. But they do this odd thing -- they "perservere" in His commands. They seem smarter than the other sheep by just that token. They pray because they are commanded to -- not that it in any way changes God or outcomes. They evangelize in a similar way -- not because God will save the lost but to make it easier for God to "effectively call" those He has already chosen to save anyway.

You see, the other sheep are "preserved" by the Shepherd because they are not smarter, only more dependent. When they pray, the Shepherd hears and may, peradventure, repent Himself of what He thought to do.

And the true sheep do not hear the voice of the stranger (Calvin) but will flee from him (10:5). After all, isn't a "stranger" anyone besides the Shepherd? Isn't it the stranger that lures them in another way saying, "You needn't 'check in' with the Shepherd. You're already 'elect,' bro. Just follow Him around for awhile and I'll be back for you soon."

skypair

 

Fine with me, but you have to start with yourself. You not only called me a liar once, you called me a pervert.
Now, as to, "all men" in your verse, I want to know why now that the cross is past us, the Son of Man has been lifted up not only to that cross but to heaven, why has not all men been drawn to Him ? Or do you have proof that Christ has already drawn all men unto Himself.

Present us with your proof, please, by Scripture.

 

Yup. That's a keeper.

 

Romans 8:16 - The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

I would rather have the Spirit's witness which is far more sure and reliable, than my works' witness, which are nothing but rags. I would rather remember the Spirit speaking to my heart, than remember my words and prayers which may have been nothing more than empty words.

And where is your Scripture that says the gospel saves ? And I suppose you mean eternal salvation, so show me the Scripture that the gospel is responsible for the eternal salvation of the sinner.

Who's rambling now ? Either Christ saved the sinner, or the gospel did. Which is which ?

And will you please tell me what grace is to you, since you accuse us of being in the "do nothing" religion ?

 

You have to cut skypair some slack. He gets his sense of assurance from the idea that he made a free will choice. He has no clue what it's like to be saved entirely by grace, so he can't fathom how we can possibly know for sure that we're saved.

From a free-will perspective, the reason WHY you are saved and another is not is because you made the right choice. From a grace perspective, we don't know the reason WHY we are saved and another is not, because God made the choice. He doesn't understand that we don't NEED to know why we were saved over another. So he "reasons" (if you can call it that) that it has something to do with faith in Calvin, or else we must not know we're saved.

 

I affirm irresistible grace. I disavow your misrepresentation of what it means.

Actually, perseverance means....perseverance.

First, we can/do know we are saved by the presence of Holy Spirit within us, testifying with our spirit that we are sons of God. Perseverance would be Holy Spirit indwelling us, leading us to maturity in our faith and love of our Lord in the midst of persecution by men or discipline by Almighty God.

I have read the story many times. I have never heard it interpreted the way you do. "They" didn't come in as "sheep", but as strange shepherds who were trying to steal the sheep. The sheep of our Lord would not follow them because they know their Master's, the Good Shepherd, voice and always follow Him. They refuse to follow strangers because the stranger's voices are different from the Master's voice.

You see, the sheep of our Lord can understand when someone is teaching something that is contrary to what their Master has already taught.

peace to youraying:

 

Be that as it may however there are those here that have made those claims of being saved against their wills. Being dragged off as they claim.

1Pe 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

No one is saved with out faith. Our faith by it's self could no doubt fail. I believe it takes the faith of Jesus Christ to save us. Faith is much more than just claiming Christ and saying you're saved. It is a required submission in humility as a little child. Trusting in Christ and His faith.
MB

 

You sure get upset when it's clearly shown to you don't you.:godisgood:
MB

 

MB : Is your statement supposed to be a refutation of PB's post ? If so it fell completely flat .

 

Well, I haven't read every post. Perhaps you could show me where someone that holds to the doctrines of Grace have referred to the drawing of Holy Spirit as being "dragged off against their wills".

canadyjd responded:

You have confused me. Do we appropriate our salvation through faith in Jesus, or is it our faith in "the faith of Jesus".

I noticed you didn't address the 2 Cor. passage that you took out of context. You could at least acknowledge you took it out of context.

peace to youraying:

 

MB : Who on the BB has claimed that they were saved against their will -- that they were dragged off ? Document that please .

C.S. Lewis ( a famous non-Calvinist ) had said some such thing regarding his conversion experience .

 

Thats to bad. There is no such thing in scripture.

Perseverance means the one who is perseverering has to work at it. Are you telling us God has to work at keeping us saved? Why can't He just speak it and it becomes so. Why does He have to keep working at it? God doesn't have to work to keep us saved.

That's the strangest interpretation I ever heard. Anyone who has been around animals knows that certain people, (and other animals) that have a way with animals can lead them anywhere with out ever having been known to the animals. You take this Blue healer I have. She can make them do what ever she wants them to do. That's saying a lot for a little dog of about 40 LBS. She can even steal the sheep from their master. Take them over completely. Sheep are gutless wonders what else can I say.

Is that why so many Christians are misled today?
MB

 

It's simple canadyjd and rippon,
This verse says it all,
Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Since it's as plain as day what else you want me to say. You can either believe it or not it's up to you isn't it?

Rippon, You believe in predestination and election. Did you have a choice? If not you must have been dragged off. There isn't any other way for someone deep in sin to come to the light on His own. That choice being made by God, means you had nothing to do with it. Salvation was forced on you by God because, you were unalterably predestined to it. Your salvation was forced. Where there is no choice or the choice is made for you then you are being forced.
MB