Election vs Armenian

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Jailminister, Sep 3, 2003.

  1. Jailminister

    Jailminister
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    Over the past few weeks, there has been heated debates(which is not always a bad thing)over a variety of different issues. I believe most of us are saved and we can agree on the Cross, but I have been wondering what is our main differences. This discussion has I am sure, been discussed before, but maybe we should re-exam it one more time. These differences seem to be a difference between those who believe in election and the Armenians. My question is can you distinquish between the two and how these two can cause division within Christianity?
    I will comment further later. What is your opinion?
     
  2. massdak

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    election is a hard pill to swallow, many want to believe that they make the ultimate choice, it is hard for man to accept that he can choose God on his own or not. scripture supports that God does the choosing and man is so depraved and blind to the truth that he would never seek God unless God draws him first. I have heard statments saying God doesnt send anyone to hell but a person sends his own self there. how do they come up with that?
    man has an obligation to believe, and man will be held responsible for that, yet man will never believe unless God draws him.
     
  3. Major B

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    Not to be pedantic, but:

    Armenian refers to a native of Armenia, a small country located in the Caucasus mountains.

    Arminian refers to a follower of the Pelagian heresy as modified by Jan Van Harmin, a.k.a. Jacobus Arminius, a dutch theologian.
     
  4. Jailminister

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    Major B, Thanks for the correction in the spelling. What do you think about the question though?
     
  5. Doubting Thomas

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    Not to be pedantic, but Arminianism is NOT Pelagianism.
     
  6. Yelsew

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    election is a hard pill to swallow, many want to believe that they make the ultimate choice, it is hard for man to accept that he can choose God on his own or not. scripture supports that God does the choosing and man is so depraved and blind to the truth that he would never seek God unless God draws him first. I have heard statments saying God doesnt send anyone to hell but a person sends his own self there. how do they come up with that?
    man has an obligation to believe, and man will be held responsible for that, yet man will never believe unless God draws him.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Have you read John Chapter 3 where Jesus in discussion with Nicodemus tells Nicodemus that whosoever believeth is not Judged, but whoever does not believe is judged already due to their unbelief? Belief and unbelief are totally human conditions! Deity does not know belief.

    Jesus, by being lifted up on that old rugged Cross draws all men to him. The Cross is the attraction that draws all men.

    If you go to an art gallery where there is a painting by Picasso, one man will say it is the best work ever done by man. Another will say, "my dog paints better than that". The cross is like that, All are drawn but some see the cross as the instrument of atonement for sins, others see it as the means of getting rid of "riff-raff"...BUT! all men are drawn to it.
     
  7. massdak

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    election is a hard pill to swallow, many want to believe that they make the ultimate choice, it is hard for man to accept that he can choose God on his own or not. scripture supports that God does the choosing and man is so depraved and blind to the truth that he would never seek God unless God draws him first. I have heard statments saying God doesnt send anyone to hell but a person sends his own self there. how do they come up with that?
    man has an obligation to believe, and man will be held responsible for that, yet man will never believe unless God draws him.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Have you read John Chapter 3 where Jesus in discussion with Nicodemus tells Nicodemus that whosoever believeth is not Judged, but whoever does not believe is judged already due to their unbelief? Belief and unbelief are totally human conditions! Deity does not know belief.

    Jesus, by being lifted up on that old rugged Cross draws all men to him. The Cross is the attraction that draws all men.

    If you go to an art gallery where there is a painting by Picasso, one man will say it is the best work ever done by man. Another will say, "my dog paints better than that". The cross is like that, All are drawn but some see the cross as the instrument of atonement for sins, others see it as the means of getting rid of "riff-raff"...BUT! all men are drawn to it.
    </font>[/QUOTE]could you supply some verses for your opinion on that?
    only when God reveals to man and draws him is biblical.
     
  8. Yelsew

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    [John 12:32] And when I am lifted up from the earth, I shall draw all people to myself.'
    [John 12:33] By these words he indicated the kind of death he would die.


    [John 3:16] For this is how God loved the world: he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life.
    [John 3:17] For God sent his Son into the world not to judge the world, but so that through him the world might be saved.
    [John 3:18] No one who believes in him will be judged; but whoever does not believe is judged already, because that person does not believe in the Name of God's only Son.
    [John 3:19] And the judgement is this: though the light has come into the world people have preferred darkness to the light because their deeds were evil.
    [John 3:20] And indeed, everybody who does wrong hates the light and avoids it, to prevent his actions from being shown up;
    [John 3:21] but whoever does the truth comes out into the light, so that what he is doing may plainly appear as done in God.'
     
  9. Jacob

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    Massdak,

    Your posts could be taken either way. You need to define "draw". Is it drag/force (like a Calvinists would define it) or is it woo/persuade as a non-Calvinist would define it?

    Jacob.
     
  10. Major B

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    Key words in caps.
     
  11. Doubting Thomas

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    Key words in caps. </font>[/QUOTE]Okay...Arminianism is not MODIFIED Pelagianism either.
     
  12. russell55

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    Why don't you define it for yourself by looking up the places helko is used in the NT and see what the scriptural definition of the word is?
     
  13. Jacob

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    Because I already know how I would define it (the word is actually 'elkuo'). I wondered how Massdak defined it as he used the word frequently and by knowing how he defined it would enable me to know better where he is coming from.

    See John 12:32. I don't think many Calvinists believe that ALL will be dragged into the Grace of salvation...

    Jacob
     
  14. russell55

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    Depends on how you transliterate it....

    No, they believe that some of all people groups will be graciously but assuredly drawn to faith and thereby saved.

    Can you show me a place where the word has the meaning of "woo"? Or "try to persuade"?
     
  15. Yelsew

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    Depends on how you transliterate it....

    No, they believe that some of all people groups will be graciously but assuredly drawn to faith and thereby saved.

    Can you show me a place where the word has the meaning of "woo"? Or "try to persuade"?
    </font>[/QUOTE]Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God. (woo'd by the word}

    For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. (woo'd by the promise)

    Pretty simple huh?
     
  16. rufus

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  17. Alegra

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    Jailmaster, no need for heated debates. In the past I have become very heated over the debate between Calvinism and Arminianism (not feeling I could agree 100% with either side). Then I came across a quote from C.H. Spurgeon. I know that both sides use him when it suits them, but this is what he said, "That God predestines, and that man is responsible, are two things few can see." C.H. Spurgeon 'New Park St. Pulpit Vol. 4 1858 Pg 337.

    Regards, Alegra
     
  18. Jacob

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    How and when do you decide that All means All or All means some? What about John 2:24-25? What about "for ALL have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God"? Do these verses really mean some?

    Jacob.
     
  19. russell55

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    You use the context and your common sense.

    Any person Jesus met he could "read". He knew the condition of their hearts, and needed no one to tell him anything about them. Seems pretty all-inclusive to me, so I would go for "all without exception" as the definition here rather than "all without distinction".

    The context says "There is none righteous, no not one ....There is none who does good, no not one..." Once again, "all without exception".

    BTW, you didn't answer my question to you, so I'll repeat it here:

     
  20. Yelsew

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    Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God. (woo'd by the word}

    For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. (woo'd by the promise)

    Sometimes difficult, but ultimately understandable.
     

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