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Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by C.R. Gordon, Jan 29, 2003.
where do you stand?
Free will "whosoever will"
can you support that (your "choice") with scripture?
I like this quote from C.H. Spurgeon
We declare on scriptural authority that the human will is so desperately set on mischief, so depraved, so inclined to everything that is evil, and so disinclined to everything that is good, that without the powerful, supernatural, irresistible influence of the Holy Spirit, no human will ever be constrained toward Christ.
I'll let the Bible speak:
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Psa 14:3, 53:3
13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
Psa 5:9, 140:3
14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
Isa 59:7 Prov 1:16
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17 And the way of peace have they not known:
There is no fear of God before their eyes.
Its obvious that God must regenerate us and turn our hearts toward him before we can have faith to believe.
Caleb we also have a Calvin/Arminian Forum of which I am one of the moderators and both of these topics have discussed many times. Come down and take a look. We can refer you to past and ongoing topics of interest.
Romans 9: (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Then if you throw Ephesians 2:1 in on top of that he is dead!... The question seems to be popping up how dead is he?... Which brings to mind what I like to call The Dead Man Walking Doctrine vs The Doctrine Of Total Depravity!... Brother Glen
Given their perceived choices a human being will ALWAYS do that which avoids the most pain or gains the most pleasure. This equation eliminates all free will and reduces us to mere biologically programmed robots. This equation also does not take into account the Holy Spirit. When the Holy Spirit enters into the equation all bets are off. We have free will to decide yes or no. Rationalization and clever human reasoning aside, if there is no choice then that means THERE IS NO CHOICE, and NOTHING and I mean NOTHING else matters. Predestination, election, free will, and chosen, can all generate a lot of discussion with all kinds of "well, then if this then that" arguments but it all boils down to one thing either WE decide and accept responsibility or WE don't and have no responsibility.
It's not a question of "Election VERSUS Free will"--the TRUTH is "Election AND Moral ACCOUNTIBILITY". Any system which emphasizes one to the exclusion of the other is unbalanced. The Bible teaches BOTH the Sovereignty of God AND the Moral Responsibility of Man. "Sovereignty means God is IN CHARGE and IN CONTROL; "Responsibility" implies the ABILITY of Man to RESPOND to God. One cannot squeeze the Bible into either the Calvinist or the Arminian theological grids. (But you can go down to the Calvinist/Arminian board and be entertained by those who think it can ) Thankfully, the Bible doesn't require us to choose between Calvinism and Arminianism--it equally affirms Authority and Accountability. Just because WE may not know how these twin truths can be fully reconciled doesn't mean that GOD has a problem knowing how it all fits.
Where does it say people can't BELIEVE on the Lord Jesus Christ after he's been witnessed to them???
Where's it say they can't BELIEVE???
Where does it say they can't BELIEVE???
Who can't BELIEVE???
So they can't BELIEVE???
No, it's obvious we must be regenerated before we can do GOOD WORKS. BUT I'M NOT SAVED BY GOOD WORKS; ARE YOU?
"...whosoever believeth in him..." means exactly that.
Your friend and brother,
To say he doesn't give all the ability to repent would show that he doesn't truly want them all to repent and would make God out to be a liar.
It's that simple.
I believe both are true because the Bible teaches both.
1Ti 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, [and] giving of thanks, be made for all men;
1Ti 2:2 For kings, and [for] all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
1Ti 2:3 For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
1Ti 2:5 For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
1Ti 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Jhn 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Does God always accomplish His will?
It's good to see this topic under Baptist Theology where only Baptists are supposed to post.
The Calvinism/Arminianism forum is open to all kinds of folks and I sure get tired of debating with non/baptists on this subject.
Baptists have a rich heritage when it comes to the Doctrines of Grace versus Free Will and it's good to see Baptists discussing it among themselves.
Question: Why do folks from the Church of Christ and Seventh Day Adventist Church post on the Baptist Board anyway? Don't they have enough folks in their own groups to discuss with?
Does God always accomplish His will? </font>[/QUOTE]Yes, he accomplished it this way:
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Who is "us"? Us is the elect. Read the verses prior to 9.They are asking when Christ will return and judge the world. God is longsuffering for the sake of all the elect who are not saved yet or born yet. Had Christ come then, Jesus would have failed to do His mission and save all those that were given to Him.
16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
World? Does that mean everyone in the world?
Jesus is talking to Nicodemus, a Pharisee and leader of the JEWS. Nicodemus had a mind-set like all the other Jews that Gentiles were not part of God's plan or salvation. All through the NT you see the early church Jews struggle with the inclusion of Gentiles. So Jesus is telling Nicodemus that salvation is for Jew and Gentile (world). Luke 2:1 speaks of the world. Does it mean every person in the world? No, just the Roman empire. Do a word search of the Bible on the words "all" and "world" and see if all means "every person" or if world means "entire planet".
Acts 13:48 says: Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.
Why only those who were apponted? Were the others NOT appointed?
Acts 16:14 says that Lydia had her heart OPENED by the Lord. Did He open all hearts or just some? Certainly not Pharaoh's.
That is not a sufficient answer. If it is God's will for every person to be saved, then every person will be saved. Period.
You know all aren't saved because sin has to have a penalty, but God provided that penalty in Christ.
God called for all to repent. The OT is full of God begging Israel to repent and turn to Him. The NT is clear that if we repent and turn to Him we will be saved.
If God wanted all to repent, they would be able to do so. It is His will that we do so, but he left that choice up to us. He has the right to do that and it is in His character to do so.
It is not in His character to pretend to want all to repent, but not really allow us to do so. It is not in His character to send people to hell for not repenting, when he never gave them the ability to do what he is punishing them for.
These discussions never get anywhere because with each verse, you have an explanation why it doesn't really mean what it says. Well, I can read and will continue to believe the Word as the Spirit has revealed it, not as Calvin and Augustine did.
Christ said we are not of this world, yet he also used the word world when he said God loved it. He was not ignorant of the meaning of this word. You want to believe it's definition in one instance and pervert it in the next. I will have no part in that.
Enjoy your conversation.
You want to believe it's definition in one instance and pervert it in the next.
So which definition is correct? Does world always have the same meaning? You can't just blow off these questions. You say I perverted the meaning, please explain if you can. Did Caesar Augustus go into Australia or China or Mexico when he registered all the world?