Elijah

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Gina B, Jun 23, 2001.

  1. Gina B

    Gina B
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    Did everyone who was saved go to Abraham's bosom prior to Jesus death?
    Gina
     
  2. Joseph_Botwinick

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  3. Gina B

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    I am wondering where Elijah went when he was taken up. Before Jesus died, people went to holding places until his death. Abraham's bosom was supposed to be the place for saved souls. But didn't Elijah go straight to heaven? And why couldn't they go straight to heaven before? Did it mean that people got a second chance to get saved? Or would afer Jesus death have been when they got their first chance? And if that's true, you'd have to say Elijah earned his salvation. It doesn't make sense.
    Gina
     
  4. DocCas

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    The "Two Compartment of Sheol" theory is pure speculation without biblical support. Elijah went to heaven. Enoch went to heaven. God is no respecter of persons. All the OT saints went to heaven. The idea that "paradise" is a holding pen for OT saints not quite good enough for heaven yet is nothing more than a Protestant "purgatory."
     
  5. Gina B

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    I thought that they existed until Christ died. Does anybody else have knowledge to share on this subject?
    Gina
     
  6. Chris Temple

    Chris Temple
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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Thomas Cassidy:
    The "Two Compartment of Sheol" theory is pure speculation without biblical support. Elijah went to heaven. Enoch went to heaven. God is no respecter of persons. All the OT saints went to heaven. The idea that "paradise" is a holding pen for OT saints not quite good enough for heaven yet is nothing more than a Protestant "purgatory."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Agreed!
    :cool:
     
  7. DocCas

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chris Temple:
    Agreed! :cool:<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Oh no! Chris Temple agreed with me! Is it too late to change my position? :D
     
  8. tachbuloth

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    The question must also decide what is meant by such verses as "Hell enlarged itself" and the parable of "Lazarus and the rich man."

    It bothers me not that “heaven” is indicated in the New Testament scriptures as a place of the soul crying out “how long before you avenge” or in the Old Testament as a place of “sleep with his fathers.”

    What you are referring to is the school of thinking that upon death Jesus presented himself to those who were in “paradise.” Paradise would contain those OT saved who knew not the “name of Jesus” but in faith looked forward to the work of the cross and the provision of the lamb. Some would also point to the use of the word “cloud” in acts as Christ ascended as the same terminology as the writer of Hebrews used in “seeing we are encompassed by a cloud of witnesses.” This meaning that the OT saints were translated into the heavenly places, and further indication is the reference to certain of the graves being opened at the crucifixion. Our Lord used the term paradise as a place of keeping for what we might call the saved.

    Hell in the scriptures as not only a literal place but also a state or condition that man finds himself. So that death and hell are not the same but both hold certain personifications. When one died they could be considered in the place of “paradise” which was a place of keeping or in hell which also was a place of keeping.

    Remember also that just as “paradise” gave up the dead which was in it so that when one now dies they are “with the Lord” so too shall hell give up the dead in it. The first is gathered to the Lamb, the latter is brought to the “lake of fire.”

    Paradise was not forever. The new heaven is.
    Hell is not forever. The lake of fire is.

    Hope this helps.
     
  9. Gina B

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    :confused: Now I don't know. So paradise is Heaven, Gehenna is Hell, Abraham's bosom was the same as heaven, all saved went to heaven (where Christ is) before he was even born, Heaven has always been the same, Hell is temporary, to be cast into the lake of fire which is permanent (that last part I know and believe) and people were not always saved by Jesus blood?
    Help me learn. My only education is that of a high school graduate, and I haven't been saved for quite two years yet.
    Gina
     
  10. Joseph_Botwinick

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gina:
    Did everyone who was saved go to Abraham's bosom prior to Jesus death?
    Gina
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Gina,

    Would you please help me with something because I am very confused and obviously very ignorant of an issue in the Bible. Where did you find the idea that anyone went to Abraham's bosom prior to Jesus death? I have never heard that preached before or seen it in the Bible. Would you please tell me where you find this in the Bible so I can get a better idea where you are coming from? I am not trying to be smart, I honestly want to know.

    Joseph :confused:
     
  11. Ars

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    And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
    And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
    Luke 16:22&23


    This is the only referrence I've been able to find regarding this. I'm pretty sure it is the only one.

    Dave
     
  12. Gina B

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    I guess that would be it.
    Joseph, I really want to know about this. When someone talks about the two compartment Sheol thery or such I have no clue. I haven't heard of it, so until I learn more I need to be taught like someone who hasn't.
    I remember as a child being taught that there was a place called that, (we used to sing a song that had it in it too) and a while back someone had mentioned that song and she told me that's what it was talking about, and that was a holding place for souls. I've also heard someone suggest that it is the Garden of Eden, and both that and the holding place for the unsaved were in the center of the earth. Pretty strange, huh?
    Now I want to hear what a Christian has to say about it.
    Gina
     
  13. Ars

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    This is the way I had it explained to me. Imagine if you will...

    A large cavern. In the middle of this cavern is a chasm. This chasm cannot be crossed. One one side of the chasm is Abraham's bosom, the other is "hell". Those on hells side are not in torment, but are in great discomfort and are waiting for the white throne judgment. Those in Abraham's bosom are waiting for the Messiah. When Christ died, he went to Abraham's bosom to proclaim victory and he opened the gates to Heaven and those in Abraham's bosom ascended with Christ to Heaven. Once Christ proclaimed victory, all saved people could go to Heaven and didn't have to go to the "waiting room". Those who are unsaved, still went to hell and wait there until the white throne judgment.

    Like many have said, this is all theory and is very much of a Protestant view and is very close to a Protestant purgatory. Since there really is not Biblical basis for this belief and it is only mentioned once in the scripture in a very vague sense such as in Luke. Hardly enough to create an entire doctrine.

    Let me know if this makes sense. And for those who are more familiar with this, let me know if I got something wrong.

    Dave
     
  14. Psalm145 3

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    I believe both saved and unsaved people before Christ went to a place that many refer to as "Hades."
    Whatever the name of this place is I don't know, it doesn't really matter.
    One side of this place was a place of torments(hell) and the other side was where Abraham was, a place of comfort.(Luke 16:22-31, I believe this is not a parable, but an actual true account).

    When Jesus died and rose , He went to Abraham's side and took all the saved ones to heaven with Him and left the unbelievers there in torments(hell).

    Ephesians 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

    The unbelievers are still in that place of torments(hell),and the unbelievers who die today go there also and await their final judgement at the great white throne after the literal 1000 year reign of Jesus Christ on earth. They will be judged and then conciously suffer in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone for ever and ever.

    The born again believers in Christ who die today go directly to Jesus in heaven and wait for their new bodies at the rapture and then go to the judgement seat of Christ, the Bema Seat, for rewards or loss of rewards, then the marriage supper of the Lamb, then they reign with Jesus for 1000 years on earth. Then eternity.

    That is what I believe, if you don't agree with me, that's o.k. you can believe what you want.
     
  15. DocCas

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Psalm145 3:
    I believe both saved and unsaved people before Christ went to a place that many refer to as "Hades." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>So, are you saying the bible is wrong when it says Enoch was taken by God? And that Elijah "went up by a whirlwind into heaven?" It looks to me like either the bible is wrong or you are wrong for saying "both saved and unsaved people before Christ went to a place that many refer to as Hades." <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>When Jesus died and rose , He went to Abraham's side and took all the saved ones to heaven with Him and left the unbelievers there in torments(hell).

    Ephesians 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    Eph. chapter 4 is talking about salvation and the spiritual gifts which accompany our salvation. Paul quotes Psalm 68:18 to explain what he is talking about. "He (Jesus Christ) led captivity captive (captured sin which had held us captive, I.E. He saved us) and gave gifts unto men." It seems pretty clear when read in context. Jesus Christ saves us then he gifts us. Nothing in the context of either Ehp 4 or Psalm 68 about a "second compartment of sheol" or a "protestant purgatory." <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>That is what I believe, if you don't agree with me, that's o.k. you can believe what you want.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>That is very big of you. You believe the notes in the hyper-dispensationalist Scofield Reference Bible and I believe the bible itself. I like my position a lot better. [​IMG]
     
  16. Chris Temple

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Thomas Cassidy:
    Oh no! Chris Temple agreed with me! Is it too late to change my position? :D<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Dr. C:

    I agree with you more often than you realize; I only disagree when you're wrong!
    :eek: :D
     
  17. DocCas

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chris Temple:
    I only disagree when you're wrong!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Wow! I have finally found someone who never disagrees with me! :D
     
  18. Gina B

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    Cassidy, I'm not going to say I disagree with you, because I don't know what I think yet, but is it possible that they went straight to heaven because they never died? I've heard it said that it is possible to reach a spiritual level where you will just be translated before you die, and that's what happened to these two.
    Gina
     
  19. DocCas

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    Alive or dead, they went to heaven, not "the second compartment of sheol." And I also believe the process of translation probably included the corruption becoming incorruptable, the flesh dying and becoming whatever those heavenly bodies are made of. Hebrews 9:27; 1 Corinthians 15:40, 50-51. [​IMG]
     
  20. Gina B

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    What do you believe happened to the Garden of Eden?
    Gina
     

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