England & the USA

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by robycop3, Nov 9, 2005.

  1. robycop3

    robycop3
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2000
    Messages:
    7,573
    Likes Received:
    10
    Here's a little article I wrote one evening. It's not well-written, but I hope it will provoke some thought and discussion by my fellow Baptists and can strengthen the faith of the brethren, as well as being another tool for proving the veracity of the Bible to skeptics.
    ________________________________________________

    The question of where the USA,obviously the strongest and richest nation the world has ever seen,fits into Biblical prophecy is often asked.The answer also involves Great Britain and the British Empire.


    Let me say that I'm not,nor was I ever,a member of the "British Israelite" cult,nor was I ever a member of Herbert Armstrong's apostate Worldwide Church of God,although some of their writings piqued my interest enough for me to pray for guidance and seek the truth myself with God's help.


    All scripture,unless otherwise specified,will be from the 1769 AV as I don't wish to engage in a versional debate here.


    First lets lay some background. A little-used fact is that not all Israelites are Jews,while all Jews are Israelites. The Jews are the tribes of Judah,Benjamin,and most of the Levites,who moved to Judah after Jeroboam deposed them from their office as priests.This separation was made by God(2 Chron.11:4).This kingdom of Judah,whose people became known as Jews,had Jerusalem as its capital.The northern ten-tribe kingdom had Samaria as its capital.So always remember-just as all Ohioans are Americans,while not all Americans are Ohioans,all Jews are Israelites(descendants of Jacob) while not all Israelites are Jews.When prophecy names Jacob,it generally refers to all Israelites; when it names Rachel or Judah,it refers to the Jews; when it names Samaria it refers to the northern kingdom.

    Let us start with God's promises to Abraham,conditional upon Abe's obedience.Gen.17:1-8 pretty well covers the MATERIAL promises to start.because Abe obeyed God,the promises were made unconditional from thereon out,and added to by God<"And thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies"Gen.22:16-1.> Now,WHAT TWO NATIONS have possessed the GATES of their enemies,both potential and de-facto?

    God now passes the promises to Isaac,and ADDS TO THEM<Gen.26:1-5>. We're all familiar as to how Jacob gained the birthright promises from Isaac,so lets see what God then promised Jacob.God again adds to His promises in Gen.27:26-29,where God says other nations will serve his descendants,and in Gen.28:13-14 where God says these peoples will eventually spread around the world.Now,that does not mean that these people would POSSESS the whole earth,but would OCCUPY many diverse areas on earth as well as the Promised land.<Note: Israelites have NEVER occupied the ENTIRE promised Land!> Now,read Gen.28:15,referring to the Dispersion.Note that this promise is to ALL of Jacob's descendants! Its fulfillment is still future.

    An ADDITIONAL promise to Jacob-so big & important that it contributed to the famous agnostic Robert Ingersoll's losing belief in the Bible,because he couldn't see the fulfillment of this: Gen.35:9-12."A nation and a company of nations shall be of thee". Care to guess which nations these are? Not old israel and Judah, which were two nations comprised of 12 tribes.

    Now we turn to the separation of the MATERIAL Birthright promises from the SCEPTER<royal line>by God. I quote 1 Chron.5:2,AV:
    "For Judah prevailed above his brethren, and of him came the chief ruler; but the birthright was JOSRPH'S<caps mine> In plain language,you see that the BIRTHRIGHT was NEVER given to the Jews,while the SCEPTER,or royal line ALWAYS has been of the Jews,as Saul was a Benjaminite,and Benjamin later became part of the Jews.The Davidic line lasting through Zedekiah should be familiar to all readers. Now what did the Birthright include? lets turn to Gen.27:21-23 where Isaac blesses Jacob,using words supplied by God.<An aside: If Jacob had let GOD confer the Birthright upon him by His own methods,he wouldn't have lived such a hard life,with so much sorrow.I believe God punished him for his deceit in obtaining the Birthright blessing,but He still loved & blessed Jacob,especially near the end of his life.>
    And now we turn to the next passing of the Birthright,as Jacob is on his deathbed. I believe we all concede that he spoke with Divine guidance to his sons & grandsons.

    First he blessed Joseph's sons Ephraim & Manasseh,purposely placing Ephraim,the younger,before Manasseh,the first-born.Let's go to Gen.48 for Scriptural comfirmation.Note verse22,where Jacob confers upon Joseph a portion above his brethren. As Joseph apparently lived the rest of his life in Egypt,he didn't use it in his lifetime. Also note that this entire chapter does not deal with the ONE SEED<Jesus> promise of Gen.22:18,but deals directly with Jacob's mortal descendants by each of his sons Note that Jacob adopted Joseph's two sons directly into his own family as his sons<Verse 16>. Jacob doubtlessly did this at God's command because they were half-Egyptian,& God wanted no doubt that they were as much a part of the Israelites as were Reuben or Dan.


    Now,according to Scripture,can there be any doubt that Ephraim & Manasseh were included as Jacob's sons,inheriting from him same as Issachar or Naphtali?

    Were these promises fulfilled in the old kingdoms of Israel and Judah? Not hardly. They became at various times fairly wealthy little states,culminating in the kingdom of Solomon. But Israel was never a world power in olden times,either as one nation under David & Solomon,nor as the two nations after Solomon.The kingdom of Judah and the ten-tribed northern kingdom of Israel did not fulfill those promises And those Birthright promises were PLAINLY passed on ONLY to Joseph<1 Chron.5:2> But God's unconditional promises are right there in plain language in any Bible version one cares to read. Did God keep them or not? Absolutely YES! Read on. But first,back to Jacob.

    In Gen.49:1,Jacob states he's telling his sons what would befall their posterity IN THE LAST DAYS. Note verse 10-" a lawgiver from between his feet until Shiloh<Jesus> comes,and unto Him shall the gathering of the people be". This "gathering of the people" hasn't happened yet,but it SHALL. Now lets look at verses 22-26. The strength,and the blessings of God from above and below on the descendants of Joseph are quite apparent. Again I ask-WHERE are,or were,the nation and the company of nations that have fulfilled those prophecies?
    Let us now go to the time of Israel's first human kings. Bear in mind that Israel rejected GOD'S being their King<1 Sam.8:4-9>, but the throne was still GOD'S throne,occupied by humans,to satisfy the peoples'wish to be like the surrounding nations(1 Chron.29:23,2 Chron.9: And as Jesus is both the Root & Offspring of David<Rev.22:16>, He is both the establisher of that throne to start with,and its legal Heir.

    But does that throne still exist? Lets see. Turn to 2 Samuel 7,beginning at verse 4. Note that God was going to establish David's dynasty FOREVER,beginning with Solomon. This was NOT referring to Jesus,as Jesus did NOT commit any iniquity as mentioned in v.14. Again-David's throne was to be established FOREVER,unconditionally,beginning with Solomon,who lived C.1000BC.

    How much importance does God place on this promise? Read Ps.89:3-4-"ALL GENERATIONS"! Need more reinforcement from GOD? Read Ps.89:28-37. Some say that Jesus took over that throne when He was here as a Man. But He plainly told Pilate that His kingdom was not of this world,But elsewhere He says it WILL BE. and Luke 1:31-32 plainly states He will be given the throne of HIS FATHER DAVID by the Lord God. So that throne MUST exist,with NO INTERRUPTION IN ANY GENERATION!

    Now,we come to where the nation of Israel was split by GOD into two nations-Israel(Samaria-the ten tribes),and Judah<The tribes of Judah,Benjamin,and most of the Levites>.Jeroboam is chosen by God to head the ten tribes in 1 Kings 11:26-39.Pay special attention to verses 31-37.WHY will Rehoboam retain regency over ONE TRIBE<composing the people named previously>and WHY is Jeroboam to be KING over?ISRAEL? After the rebellion of ISRAEL against Rehoboam<1 Kings 12:4-20>Judah and her fellows SECEDED from the rest of ISRAEL. In verses 21-24,you see that the ten tribes are called the children of Israel by GOD HIMSELF,Who says this separation is from HIM!!


    Now WERE the Jews actually considered a separate nation from Israel from then on out? The first place in the KJV where the name "Jews" appears is in 2 Kings 16:6-"At that time Rezin king of Syria recovered Elath to Syria, and drave the JEWS(caps mine) from Elath: and the Syrians came to Elath, and dwelt there unto this day." If you read the beginning of the chapter,you see that Rezin was an ally of Pekah,king of ISRAEL.<Ahaz was then king of JUDAH.> Nowhere in the Bible does "Jews" refer to ALL the descendants of Jacob."Israel" at times refers to all such descendants,as all Jews ARE descended from Jacob,but NOT ALL DESCENDANTS OF JACOB ARE JEWS!!!!! And in the Bible,"Judah" refers to that nation,founded by GOD after Solomon died.

    THEN,what happened? Jeroboam sinned abominably before God,setting up two golden calves as his subject's'"gods"<1 Kings 12:28-33> Now here are some verses which show God was dealing separately with Judah & Israel:

    1 Kings 14,KJV
    15:For the LORD shall smite Israel(NOT JUDAH), as a reed is shaken in the water, and he shall root up Israel<NOT JUDAH> out of this good land, which he gave to their fathers, and shall scatter them beyond the river, because they have made their groves, provoking the LORD to anger.
    16:And he shall give Israel<NOT JUDAH> up because of the sins of Jeroboam, who did sin, and who made Israel<NOT JUDAH> to sin.<NOT JUDAHs mine>

    You may read the first chapters of Isaiah to see many of God's dealings with JUDAH<not Israel>

    This is more solid proof of GOD'S separation of the peoples.Now for further proof that God punished the ten tribes,known as ISRAEL,separately from Judah,for THEIR national sins:

    2 Kings 17,KJV
    22:For the children of Israel walked in all the sins of Jeroboam which he did; they departed not from them;
    23:Until the LORD removed Israel out of his sight, as he had said by all his servants the prophets. So was Israel carried away out of their own land to Assyria unto this day.

    More proof is found in Hosea 3:4-5,and Deut.32:26. We plainly know,through the Bible,and secular history that God has never removed JUDAH from His sight. Now,WHO was made captive in Babylon? And WHO did God allow to return to their own land?

    "Then rose up the chief of the fathers of Judah and Benjamin, and the priests, and the Levites, with all them whose spirit God had raised, to go up to build the house of the LORD which is in Jerusalem."<Ezra 1:5,KJV>Note the genealogies in Ezra & Nehemiah of those who returned-none from the ten tribes

    This is a key fact to remember in studying prophecy: that Judah and Israel were separated by GOD into two nations,and although all Jews are Isrealites,not all Isrealites are Jews,just as all Ohioans are Americans,but not all Americans are Ohioans. Now for David's throne-the throne God promised would endure for all time,starting with Solomon. Did it end with Zedekiah? Not if one believes all of God's word!

    Turn to Ezekiel 21:18,and 21:25 to see God was referring to Zedekiah Notice God says,"This<the royal symbols> shall not be the same"."Exalt him that is low,and abase him that is high" Now who was high? Zedekiah and the Jews.Who was low? the other ten tribes!"I will overturn,overturn,overturn it:and it shall be no more until he come whose right it is;"and I will give it to him." A clear reference to Jesus. The throne MUST exist for God to give it to Jesus. If it were dormant or non-existent,God would've said so.And if it ceased with Zedekiah,how could the other two overturns have occurred? If you've read the AV and other Elizabethan English works extensively,you'll notice the authors often leave out some descriptive language here and there,leaving us to imply what's meant.That's true of verse 27,which we would,in our vernacular,have probably written,"And it shall be no more OVERTURNED...". To interpret it any other way is in conflict with God's unconditional promise to David.

    What happened to that throne? Read the entire chapter of Ezekiel 17.And WHO continued David's dynasty? Here's where actual history becomes a little fuzzy. Herbert Armstrong's Worldwide Church of God maintains Jeremiah went to Ireland with the king's daughters mentioned in Jeremiah 41:10.But after spending many hours reading Irish annals,both on the Net & in the public library,I've not found one scintilla of evidence to support this view. But Scripture cannot be broken,and David must therefore have had a descendant ruling over Israelites somewhere when Zedekiah fell.

    A likely answer to this question can be found at
    www.biblemysteries.com/li...remiah.cfm
    which also sums up my disbeliefs of the Jeremiah-in-Ireland theory. I hope everyone takes the time to read this site closely,and to research its factuality with various encyclopediae as I have done. There are other sources quoting the same info,but I believe this one best conveys the info therein in a style understood by readers of average education such as I.You will see from that site and the other informational sources if you care to read them,that the link between David's blood line and that of Ireland is much older than the time of Jeremiah. The line of descent from the Irish to the Scottish throne and from the Scottish to the British throne<King James VI of Scotland became King James I of Scotland and England after the death of his cousin Elizabeth I in 1603-and the line from him to Queen Elizabeth II is easily seen.> This accomplishes everything God told Ezekiel;the throne was NOT the same<The Irish of that time were neither powerful nor wealthy>,the 'high'<Zedekiah and the Jewish nation> was abased,the 'low' was exalted<the British Empire was the most powerful and wealthiest empire the world has ever seen> and the throne was overturned three times<ended in Judah while continuing in Ireland,to Scotland,to England>.

    God has placed special emphasis on this promise by repeating it so often,to make sure we don't miss it:
    <Thus saith the LORD; If my covenant be not with day and night, and if I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth;
    Then will I cast away the seed of Jacob and David my servant, so that I will not take any of his seed to be RULERS<Note-PLURAL!> over the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob: for I will cause their captivity to return, and have mercy on them.><Jeremiah 33:25-26,AV>

    Does it sound like I'm using my imagination,stretching history to fit a theory? Read it for yourselves. And I believe every word of the Bible,King James version or otherwise.And that Bible says David shall have a descendant ruling over Israelites in EVERY generation,beginning with Solomon. Either one believes the Bible or doesn't.And there are a LEGION of secular history sources linking several groups of early inhabitants of the British isles with the Israelites of the ten tribes.


    Now,is the Promised Land the ONLY place where Israel is to live? Read II Samuel 7:10 & I Chron.17:9.Israel is to be PLANTED, and MOVE NO MORE! This doesn't refer to the Promised Land,as the Jews had not yet been forced into Babylon,and today,they occupy only a small part of the actual land area promised by God to ALL Israel,not just the Jews. And they are to move no more! Is this true in Palestine today?


    Lets see God's word for more proof of the identity of England,and of their rule by David's descendants. First,read Psalms 89:25-"I will set his hand in the SEA..."The 49th chapter of Isaiah begins,"Listen,O ISLES,unto me".Read this whole chapter,paying close attention to the NORTHWEST location where Israelites are.The British Isles are northwest of Jerusalem. And again in Isaiah41:1,8."Keep silence before me,O ISLANDS.." And in Jeremiah 31:7,some of Israel is to be found in the CHIEF OF THE NATIONS<What one nation could ever have held that title except England?> and the message declared "in the ISLES afar off<V.10>

    The purpose of this work is not to change one iota of doctrine,but to prove the veracity of the entire Bible,and to answer the question,"Where is the USA in prophecy?" I'm not going to go into the prophecies of punishment pronounced on our nations for continued apostasy;they are all quite plain for anyone to read for themselves. But I WILL remind you from secular history how precisely our nations fit the Biblical Birthright promises.
    At one time,between the USA and the UK,our two nations ruled almost 3/4 of the total land area of the world.We possessed most of the world's natural resources and we still possess the world's most advanced technology in most fields,and ,far and away,the most industrial potential to manufacture any devices now known to man.The USA alone is still the "breadbasket of the world",producing far and away the most food per capita of any other nation ever known. And the English-speaking world has far and away the largest number of Bibles,churches,preachers<including missionaries> and professing Christians on earth! Is this all a coincidence? No way!


    Now HOW did Great Britain,a nation that occupies half an island<an area of about 50,000 sq.miles,a population of close to 50 million today> come into control of the vast British Empire comprising upwards of a billion people and containing over half the world's natural resources? Was it by their own skill? Read English history for yourself.The English government was rife with corruption and cabals all the time their empire was being built.And that they held on to it at all was purely through the will of God.


    And how did the thirteen colonies,with practically no Navy to speak of, with less actual fighting men than three British regiments,almost no organized central government to supply an army,few experienced soldiers or officers,and a continual shortage of the necessities of both life and warfare within their armed forces,achieve independence from the greatest empire the world has ever known,to rise rapidly to the world's single most powerful and richest nation,except for the will of God? How did the USA,after achieving independence,manage to survive at all,with no industry,an embryonic military,abd the constand fierce quarrels between the states? Read a good history of the US from 1776-1829,and if you're a citizen and a Christian you'll thank God for His miraculous creation of this nation,against all odds,humanly speaking.

    Does any other nation or company of nations that ever existed even remotely fit the Biblically-described Birthright nations? Is it coincidence that the USA has 75% of the world's preachers,60% of all printed Bibles in any language,more churches per capita than any other nation on earth,and more Jewish citizens than any other country,including Israel?


    The early history of the origins of the British royal line is rather fuzzy,I admit,but where is another royal line that fulfills the the promise God made to David, that David would ALWAYS have a descendant ruling over Israelites IN EVERY GENERATION,a promise that God REPEATS and EMPHASIZES in several books of the Bible? God ESPECIALLY emphasizes that promise in Jeremiah and Ezekiel,as He is preparing to end Zedekiah's evil reign.


    I don't believe the AV is the ONLY valid English translation of God's word,but its certainly a very good one.The facts that more copies of the AV exist than that of any other Bible version in any language,and that it now bears the name of King James serves to emphasize the importance of both the British Empire and King James himself<although I doubt that he realized he was the third overturn of David's throne> in the overall plan of God. I chose to indicate the Scriptures I used from the AV because that version best conveys the message I'm trying to state. I hope that all readers of this will look at Biblical prophecy in an exciting new light as it is fulfilled before our very eyes,and use this as a tool to witness for Jesus by proving the veracity of the ENTIRE Bible to skeptics.


    A further tool to help you prove the veracity of the most-unlikely<by human standards> stories in the Bible-the book "WORLDS IN COLLISION" by Immanuel Velikovsky< A Jewish scientist,of Russian descent>. He provides PROOF of the sun and moon's standing still at Joshua's prayer<even though from a secular view-but evidence is evidence-and he provides the sources for his evidence!>,the sundial of Ahaz's shadow's moving backward ten degrees at Hezekiah's request,and all other Biblical events that were seen worldwide.


    One final piece of advice-when undertaking any Bible study on any subject,one should read all the surrounding verses to obtain the sense of the Scriptures involved. That is,if you read the verses I've referred to above,please read before and after them also.Please remember that no one should take any verse<s> from the context-that the interpretation of any verse,phrase,or word in the Bible should conform with the surrounding material,and the overall theme of the whole work.
    _______________________________________________

    I wrote this in one evening about 10 years ago, and since then, I've seen nothing to show it wrong...but I maintain an open mind about the entire subject.

    PROPHECY FULFILLED TODAY:

    Isaiah 19:17
    And the land of Judah shall be a terror unto Egypt, every one that maketh mention thereof shall be afraid in himself, because of the counsel of the LORD of hosts, which he hath determined against it.
     
  2. LadyEagle

    LadyEagle
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b> <img src =/israel.gif>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2002
    Messages:
    22,028
    Likes Received:
    1
    robycop3, thank you for having the courage to post your wonderful article & for writing it.

    Like you, I maintain an open mind about the subject, and have been unable (for many years) to find anything in the Bible or elsewhere to prove this wrong. Hope this thread can be kept on topic for those who are also interested and not digress into other "anti" areas.

    I find it amazing, also, that whenever flags are being burned around the world, it is ALWAYS the US and Israeli flags being burned (sometimes the UK flag, too).

    Also, we can always count on our main allies to band together when times get tough - USA, UK, Australia, Canada, Israel. Why is that? Perhaps we are related? [​IMG]

    Armstrong wasn't the only person to explore the subject of the Lost Tribes.

    Here is a website by a Jewish Rabbi who has a lot of fascinating articles on this subject:

    http://www.britam.org/

    Again, thank you for posting. [​IMG]
     
  3. HankD

    HankD
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    15,120
    Likes Received:
    319
    A Glimpse of Iowa in 1846 by John B. Newhall

    Found online in the public domain at:
    http://iagenweb.org/history/1846/1846pgs9to19.htm

    HankD
     
  4. robycop3

    robycop3
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2000
    Messages:
    7,573
    Likes Received:
    10
    It's no coincidence that the USA has more Jews than any other nation, and NYC has more jews than any other city.

    It's no coincidence that the USA has had fewer anti-Semitic incidents than any other large nation...nor that the modern British Isles have had very few such incidents since they broke the power of the RCC in England.

    It's no coincidence that a very large percentage of our bureaucrats are Jews.

    It's no coincidence that the USA is a close ally of Israel, and that England, once our enemy, is a close ally...nor that Jewish leader Chaim Weizmann invented a smokeless gunpowder for use in WW1, giving the secret to the British in exchange for David Balfour's promise to work for the establishment of a Jewish nation. (the Balfour Declaration)

    It's no coincidence that the English-speaking nations, especially the USA, have far more Bibles, pastors, & churches than all the resta the world together.

    God's gonna re-establish Judah and Israel, not because they deserve it, but because they're still His special people, and He's gonna use them to show His power to them ans all the resta the world. He's gonna show faithful and skeptic alike that HIS WORD STANDS.

    Once again, I'm NOT trying to start a new doctrine; I believe the Bible literally as possible, and when God said the rulership is Judah's and the material wealth of the birthright was Joseph's, I fully believe Him. I believe He has bestowed that birthright upon England & the USA, and I believe David's throne is in England. However, I'm NOT declaring these to be facts carved in stone, but I'll believe them until/unless GOD shows me better candidates.

    This is but another tool to prove the Bible's veracity to skeptics, as if the rapid increase in travel & knowledge & the rapid rise of tiny Israel(Pop.4.8 million, little more than the state of Kentucky) as a world military power wasn't enough!
     
  5. Karen

    Karen
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2000
    Messages:
    2,610
    Likes Received:
    0
    Do you also believe that the Lord Jesus will rule from Jerusalem during the Millennium?
    How are you tying these ideas in with present-day Israel in prophecy?

    Karen
     
  6. Marcia

    Marcia
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2004
    Messages:
    11,139
    Likes Received:
    0
    Is what you are saying called Anglo-Israelism?
     
  7. HankD

    HankD
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    15,120
    Likes Received:
    319
    Personally, I wouldn't go that far.

    HankD
     
  8. LadyEagle

    LadyEagle
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b> <img src =/israel.gif>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2002
    Messages:
    22,028
    Likes Received:
    1
    Personally, I wouldn't go that far.

    HankD
    </font>[/QUOTE]Perhaps for the time being....

    Interesting read about the "Coronation Stone."

    http://asis.com/~stag/stone.html

    Here is another source:

    http://www.biblemysteries.com/library/liafail.htm

    Two differing points of view on how the "stone" got to England originally, but both agree on the origin of the stone being that from the Hebrews and Jacob's dream at Bethel (Beth-El).


    You can always GOOGLE the word "liafail" for more info.... [​IMG]
     
  9. LadyEagle

    LadyEagle
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b> <img src =/israel.gif>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2002
    Messages:
    22,028
    Likes Received:
    1
    Yes, I do. I also am inclined to believe the Coronation Stone will end back at Jerusalem. [​IMG]

    Don't know. There are many groups and some believe the present-day Jews in Israel are "false" Jews and those from the Lost Tribes are the "true" Israel (this has nothing to do with salvation, but physical identity of a peoples). As a result, some of those groups have turned militant with a hatred of Jews and present-day Israel and some have become white supremacy groups.

    There are others who believe those who occupy present day Israel are from the tribe of Judah and Benjamin, as well as Levi (the tribe of Levi having been proved recently through DNA).

    Different groups have different names with different views. So, it is probably better not to seek a label, but to study the different resources along with the Scriptures and come to your own conclusion. There are many resources on the web that have many differing views.
     
  10. HankD

    HankD
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    15,120
    Likes Received:
    319
    First LE thanks for the information and I will look into it.

    As for the "Coronation Stone", my first guess would be that Richard (LionHeart) or the Knights Templar brought it back with them from the Holy Land.

    HankD
     
  11. robycop3

    robycop3
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2000
    Messages:
    7,573
    Likes Received:
    10
    Not actually. There's a racist outfit called the "British Israelites" who use many of the same ideas, but they're not out to glorify God nor to show the veracity of Scripture.

    Unlike them, I recognize the fact that Israel was accompanied from Egypt by more than a few Egyptians as well as Midianites, Ethiopians, and quite likely some other peoples not named in Scripture. Although Moses' wife Zipporah was a Midianite(Kenite), he had also married an Ethiopian.(Numbers 12:1) And, reading on in Numbers 12, we see God swiftly punished Miriam for leading the criticism of this marriage. We can therefore conclude that God hates racism.

    And I was nearly caught in Armstrongism(Worldwide Church of God) when I was a baby Christian. fortunately, the Holy Spirit opened my eyes to the fact that ole Herby believed in annihilationism, which is against Scripture, and my exit from that cult was swift and final. Although I used Herby's material as the basis for much of my research, I later found he's made many errors and had often employed guesswork in his "studies".

    We see in 1 Chron.2:34-41 that some of Jesse's descendants had Egyptian blood. This is part of the explanation of why God will bless Egypt after He ends His punishing her.

    No, I am neither "British Israelite" nor Armstrongite...just Baptist.
     
  12. Gwen

    Gwen
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2004
    Messages:
    4,107
    Likes Received:
    5
    Wow! What an interesting topic! Just for the record, the Stone of Destiny was moved from Westminster Abbey on Nov. 15th, 1996 to Edinburgh Castle in Edinburgh, Scotland. I was there in October last year and saw it.
     
  13. rsr

    rsr
    Expand Collapse
    <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2001
    Messages:
    10,072
    Likes Received:
    101
    Roby, I am skeptical of using Velikovsky as a source; he thought Venus was only 3,500 years old and speculates it may have dropped insect larvae and debirs on the earth that accounted for the Exodus plagues.

    Velikovsky provides no proof of anything, just conjecture. He's marginally more scientific than Alexander Hislop, which is faint praise indeed.
     
  14. robycop3

    robycop3
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2000
    Messages:
    7,573
    Likes Received:
    10
    However, RSR, many civilizations that never knew of each other's existence in ancient times, had an unnatural fear of Venus and many tales of destruction upon the earth caused by Venus. Same for Mars. We know that if Mars caused any destruction on earth we should expect to see evidence of much-greater destruction on Mars, as Mars has only 38% of of earth's gravity. And wherever a lander has sent back pics from Mars, its surface looks like a well-used artillery range. Now, while I doubt that any eggs or larvae were deposited on earth from Venus, I cannot simply dismiss all of Velikovsky's works as guesswork, either. After all, the stoppage of the sun & moon for Joshua was recorded worldwide, and was accpmpanied by natural catastrophe in many places. And Scripture tells us that during that time a hail of stones from the sky('barad' in Hebrew) killed more Canaanites than the Israelis did. Indeed, there have been found some meteors in the area that appear to have cone down at an angle, in which case they woulda caused elongated bursts as an artillery shell fired at a low trajectory.

    Likewise, the reversal of the sun in its course was noted worldwide. In North America, a subtribe of Pawnees in the east noted that the sun came up a little, then retreated. Their story goes that a rabbit was waiting to lasso the sun, but the sun, seeing the waiting rabbit, retreated, built up his power, then returned, setting many fires & driving the rabbit off. In the west, the Shoshonis have a tale about a long night in which the stars "went back where they'd been" for awhile.

    Though not set in stone, of course, it's not beyond the realm of possibility that Venus was the agent God used to bring about the plagues of Egypt. I say this because had these events just simply happened outta the blue, then Pharaoh woulda known it was from GOD, & his heart wouldn'ta been hardened. Instead, he coulda well had the big image of a nearby Venus in the sky to blame.(Also, similar plagues struck other parts of the world, and struck selectively, as they did in Egypt where Goshen was spared.)
     
  15. robycop3

    robycop3
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2000
    Messages:
    7,573
    Likes Received:
    10
    Does anyone have any other candidates for the throne of David today? According to Scripture, it's gotta be here somewhere. My leading candidate is the throne of England, but that's not set in stone of course.
     
  16. prophecynut

    prophecynut
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2004
    Messages:
    1,263
    Likes Received:
    0
    Consider the following verses concerning David's throne; fulfillment is during the Millenium:

    Isa. 16:5; Jer. 23:5-6; 30:8-9,21; 33:15-16.
     
  17. robycop3

    robycop3
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2000
    Messages:
    7,573
    Likes Received:
    10
    With all due respect, please read the ORIGINAL accounts where God says He will establish David's throne FOR EVER, beginning with Solomon, and that if any of those ruling descendants sin, God will NOT remove the throne from David's family as He did from Saul's. As God knew that these men WOULD sin & that JESUS would NOT sin, He made that statement. And please note that in Isaiah 33, He said, , "rulerS".

    That 's all I have time for today; further commentzz tomorrow, God Willing. BTW, thanx for your input!
     
  18. LadyEagle

    LadyEagle
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b> <img src =/israel.gif>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2002
    Messages:
    22,028
    Likes Received:
    1
    Roby, here's an article I thought was interesting:

    Pravda

    Just thought this was interesting...as are many things...
     
  19. blackbird

    blackbird
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2002
    Messages:
    11,898
    Likes Received:
    2
    Pravda

    Just thought this was interesting...as are many things...
    </font>[/QUOTE]LE---I saw a recent picture of Putin in Newsweek(or some mag of the sort)---ummmmmm---he's got a face that tells me that I would want him on my side in a fist fight!!! Rugged jawed---yet--cannot be "bought" by the American dollar or the Russian Ruble!! You know--just like your buddy Blackbird!! :D :D
     
  20. robycop3

    robycop3
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2000
    Messages:
    7,573
    Likes Received:
    10
    Hello, Prophecynut! God Willing, I shall now respond to the other Scriptures you cite.

    Jeremiah 30:8For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him:

    9But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.


    This is referring to JESUS. Many Jews called Him "son of David", and God DID raise Him up. besides that, we know David will be in the coming kingdom. In what capacity, we don't know.

    Jeremiah 30:21And their nobles shall be of themselves, and their governor shall proceed from the midst of them; and I will cause him to draw near, and he shall approach unto me: for who is this that engaged his heart to approach unto me? saith the LORD.

    For the CONTEXT of this verse, one must read from Verse 10 to the end of the chapter. This is describing in part the establishing of Israel and Judah as a nation again, with their knowing who they are, and V 21 is about human governors. We have pointed out that David's throne is not necessarily now over JEWS, as the Jews aren't ALL of Israel.(I don't know if God will continue His expansion of modern Judah to include the rest of Israel, or there will be a separate Israeli nation that will later merge with Judah. I don't know the nuts-n-bolts of God's work; I only know IT'S GONNA HAPPEN as Scripture says.)

    Jeremiah 33:15In those days, and at that time, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land.

    16In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The LORD our righteousness.


    Nothing in these verses clashes with the fact that David's throne MUST be in existence somewhere on earth, ruling over Israelites. Moreover, you have missed the CONTEXT AGAIN. To see this context, you must read the whole chapter.

    First, God reminds Jerry that HE has brought calamity upon Judah and Jerusalem, but that He will rebuild it,and it will be prosperous and happy, and that its people will worship Him.

    And V15-16 can only be referring to JESUS.

    Please read on in Ch.33. Here's V 17: For thus saith the LORD; David shall never want a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel;

    What part of "never" can some people not understand?

    God then goes on to reiterate His promise to Davit TWO MORE TIMES!!!!!!!! Evidently this promise is VERY IMPORTANT TO GOD!!!!!!!The veracity of ALL the Scriptures rests upon this thrice-iterated promise being kept!!!!!!It's the very words of GOD THE FATHER!!!!

    Remember, Jerry is under house arrest in the king's estate at the time, and shortly thereafter, Zedekiah is deposed as king & the Jews are taken captive to Babylon. Thus, God teminds Jerry of His promise, that He is keeping it despite the end of Solomon's line of kings. Remember, David had MANY sons, as did Solomon, and God can make any of david's descendants a ruler over Israelites. Also remember God decrees three overturns of the throne to Ezekiel.

    And in the third iteration of His promise to David, God says:

    Jeremiah 33: 24Considerest thou not what this people have spoken, saying, The two families which the LORD hath chosen, he hath even cast them off? thus they have despised my people, that they should be no more a nation before them.

    Note:TWO families! At that time, Israel was gone, removed about 65 years earlier by the Assyrians. They were NOT a nation any more in the eyes of man. And Judah was to lose her nationhood by the hand of Caesar Hadrian on 135-6 AD, not to regain it till 1948.(She had lost her independence to Nebuchadnezzar during Jeremiah's lifetime,about 586 BC.

    25Thus saith the LORD; If my covenant be not with day and night, and if I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth;

    26Then will I cast away the seed of Jacob and David my servant, so that I will not take any of his seed to be RULERS over the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob: for I will cause their captivity to return, and have mercy on them.


    Pretty strong words from God, eh? Please note the plural RULERS. Since there is but one Jesus Christ, this hasta mean HUMAN plural rulers. Couple this with "David shall NEVER want a man..." and see God is reiterating His promise to David that His throne shall be established FOREVER, beginning with Solomon; thus it was established shortly before David died. And according to GOD'S plain words, that throne shall continue ininterrupted until Jesus takes over it FOREVER.

    I don't think God coulda been much plainer. The problem people have with this decree of God's is that they recognize only the Jews as israel, and they are NOT governed by any descendant of David's. Also, they believe the ten tribes have been lost to history, absorbed into other peoples.They just haven't studied God's prophecies closely enough to realize that David's throne MUST be here, ruling over some Israelites, and that God's prophecies have come to pass right down the line! Ask any elderly person if he/she thought before WW2 that the Jews would have a sovereign nation again! However, against all human odds, GOD PREVAILED, AS USUAL!

    Note: In the KJV's archaic English, "captivity to return" means "return from captivity" in OUR English.

    Again, Prophecynut, please take time to scope out the WHOLE CHAPTERS before simply ripping out some verses. It's all about CONTEXT.
     

Share This Page

Loading...