England's Call to Repeal Our Declaration of Independence

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Revmitchell, Apr 29, 2008.

  1. Revmitchell

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    It's a good thing that British Prime Minister Gordon Brown's U.S. visit was upstaged by the dramatic reception Americans gave Pope Benedict XVI. Brown might have been booed if he hadn't delivered what aides called his "signature" speech within the cloistered walls of Harvard's Kennedy Center.

    Brown's tedious, hour-long speech impudently demanded that we issue a "Declaration of Interdependence" in order to submit to global governance. That's another way of calling on us to repeal our Declaration of Independence.

    Story Here
     
  2. Palatka51

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  3. Andre

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    I read the "Declaration of Interdependence" and there are a number of things in it that I suspect any serious Christian would object to. But, the problem with this document is not the issue of "global governance" per se.

    In a very real sense, the scriptures teach that there is a global government at work in the world right now. And its head is none other than Jesus Christ, who right now has authority over this world:

    "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me..."

    When Jesus returns, there will be a single world government. And we should be prepared for the kind of world that will be thrust upon us at that time. A world....

    10to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment—to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.

    I am not saying that we should willy-nilly dissolve national boundaries in a wild haphazard fashion. But the day is coming when the lordship of Jesus over his renewed creation will be out in the open. So we really should remember that we (believers) are first and foremost members of a kingdom that knows no national or other similar boundaries. We are citizens of our respective nations a distant, distant second.

    This perspective, I suggest, should inform the way we look at questions of increasing "inter-dependence" among nations. I am generally suspicious of "nationalism" and think we are often distracted by it from our true citizenship in the real Kingdom.
     
  4. Palatka51

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    True, however interdependence is in and of itself dependence upon each other and non dependence upon Christ. Isn't that exactly what they attempted at the tower of Babel?
     
  5. Dragoon68

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    When Jesus comes again He will establish Himself as Lord. We don't need to move away from our "nationalism" in order to prepare the way for Him. If we've accepted Him as our savior He will take care of us. In Him is where our ultimate hope should be. In the mean time, in the interest of maintaining liberty and justice amongst mortal and sinful men such as we all are, we'd better strengthen our resolve to keep America sovereign and independent of all other nations such that we may govern ourselves as we best see fit. If we trust in the Lord and seek His daily guidance in all that we do - including the so called "secular" matters - then what we "best see fit" will surely be as good as it can be here on this earth. If we let our self governance slip away to world opinion and "diverse" believes into a purely "secular" point of view - i.e., loose the Christian underpinning of our nation - then we will most likely loose our liberty and justice as well as our prosperity. We will become slaves to a human government that controls all things, makes all decisions, provides or denies what it believes each person needs or doesn't, and takes whatever it wants from those it deems to be providers.
     
  6. Palatka51

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    Very, very good post. :thumbs:
     
  7. hillclimber1

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    Satan is the ruler of earth today. Christ is now in exile, in heaven awaiting the time to make "His enemies His footstool". Whoever (satan) is running things today is doing a lousy job.

    This movement to help satan unite the world in "unity" is an evil plot, by him. The Bible tells me so.
     
  8. hillclimber1

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    When the Lord takes up the throne of David, He'll rule with a rod of iron, and strict adherence to the Kingdom Law will be enforced.
     
  9. Joseph M. Smith

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    This discussion of independence and interdependence among nations reminds me of our Baptist discussions about local church autonomy and denominational cooperation. It is and can be a both/and, not an either/or.

    We need to realize that interdependence is a reality already. International trade has made that true, as has the need for security alliances.

    The thing I would worry about a bit concerning British-American interdependence is the old ghost that keeps on appearing -- that deep in the English-speaking consciousness is the persuasion that we are somehow better than the rest of the world and deserve to dominate it.
     
  10. Revmitchell

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    Back to reality.



    We are interdependent to a degree. And that is fine so long as it does not work to change our Consitution or infringe on our soveriegnty.

    God Bless America!
     
  11. Dragoon68

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    Bristish-American? I don't think so! I'd say Rome and Greece in ancient times. I'd say France, Spanish, Portugal, England, etc. dominated the world in colonial times. I'd say Germany and Japan tried to dominate the world not too long ago. I'd say Russia and China likewise had, and may still have, such inclinations. America, on the other hand, seems to have a habit of liberating people and restoring self rule even to its former enemies. History shows us to better in this respect as a nation among other nations. That doesn't make us individually as men before God any better than any one else but we sure don't need to apologize for our record on the international scene.
     
  12. Andre

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    I think this response manifests what I think is the unscriptural position that Jesus is "gone for now" and "we'll run things down here for now" without concern for "bringing all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ".

    It appears that you believe that this "bringing together" lies exclusively in the future. I, on the other hand, think it is already underway.

    One of Paul's many penetrating insights is that Jesus represents "bringing God's future redemption" of mankind "into the present". He describes Jesus as the first fruits. The project is already underway.

    Not to mention that Paul's "gospel" (despite widespread misunderstanding of this term) entails the very immediate implication that Jesus is Lord of this present world and Caesar is not.

    I believe you misread the scriptures if you think His reign only starts in the future. It is underway and even now the Kingdom of God does battle with other "earthly" kingdoms including, I daresay, the kingdom that involves wanting to shelter "national wealth".

    I see no way to read the scriptures that does not lead to the conclusion that now is the time to implements the unity of the kingdom. And where national walls get in the way, we need to work to de-construct them.

    The last thing we want is to have Jesus return and find that the rich nations have been "sheltering their wealth" or otherwise isolating themseves from the poor ones and, worse yet, the church has actually collaborated in this.

    You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, 27for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise
     
  13. Andre

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    My Bible tells me that Jesus has already been installed:

    "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me."
     
  14. hillclimber1

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    100% incorrect..........If Jesus is in charge, where is Justice?????
    When He returns, He will rule with a rod of iron....
     
    #14 hillclimber1, Apr 29, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 29, 2008
  15. EdSutton

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    Uh- the words in blue are a direct quote by Jesus found in Matt. 28:18b. (TNIV, NIVUK, NIRV, ESV, GWT, NIV) Other English versions are very similar.

    Still wanna' stick with the 100% incorrect bit?

    Or would you wanna' rethink this one just a little more?

    Ed
     
  16. windcatcher

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    Didn't Jesus also say 'My kingdom is not of this world; If it were of this world then would my servants fight."?

    Jesus has all authority..... but the devil is the prince of this world, and he is in control of man's government, until the day when he is cast out.

    When Jesus exercises his authority over the nations...... not only will his rule be a rule of iron.... His rule will be righteous.

    There is no righteous rule anywhere in the world right now: Nor can the existant powers bring in a righteous rule. The devil has a plan.... and that has always been to trump God: All through history the devil has presented his imposters; All throughout history, the devil has staged his practices for his final act: He has watch our actions and our reactions. He has deternined how to control our mind, how to manipulate our thinking; how to use 'needs', fear, crisis and violence to control and to kill---oh yes, and deceptive majik/seemingly miracles. He knows how we revell in our pride and our own intellect but how ignorant we are of God's word and how little we've trusted in God's power. He plants tares among the good grain to compete for nutrients and corrupt the harvest: He plants deceivers among us to bring us confusion. He plants imposters in our midst to stir up trouble and cause the sheep to be targeted: agent provacateurs. He is determined as an adversary to oppose all which is good. The outcome is beyond his control, all the prophecies are being fullfilled in the closing stages; Once he realizes his time is short, his anger will break forth against any and all that remind him of the Sovereign God. And God tells us to endure...... some will endure to the end.

    We are not to have fellowship with the works of darkness. Our fight is spiritual and so is our armor. Paul recognized this when he acknowledge that we wrestle not with flesh and blood, but with pricincipalities and powers etc. We are not to conform to this world, but to be transformed.... to have the mind of Christ: to keep God in his power and control in our lives.
     
    #16 windcatcher, Apr 30, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 30, 2008
  17. Andre

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    Even though I agree that the world is still in trouble, I'll take Jesus at His word and take my chances on that. To repeat:

    "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me."

    You do raise a valid point about the absence of justice. But how you know that Jesus' governance in the present world is not winning some battles in this area? I never claimed that Jesus' present lordship over the world does not mean that His victory is complete. But the war is being waged.

    Consider the Lord's prayer:

    'Our Father in heaven,
    hallowed be your name,
    10your kingdom come,
    your will be done
    on earth as it is in heaven.


    The structure of the prayer only makes sense if God's kingdom is coming to be in this very world.

    If the kingdom is only coming in the future, then the structure of the prayer requires us to believe that the part about "your will be done" must also be a "future only" kind of thing. Who among you believes that? No one, I suspect. Of course, we believe that "thy will be done" is a prayer for today. But if you believe this "mix" of tenses, then you have:

    'Our Father in heaven,
    hallowed be your name,
    10
    your kingdom come (***in the future),
    your will be done (***in the present)
    on earth as it is (***in the present) in heaven.


    I trust that I do not need to explain what is wrong with this. Note that the prayer is clearly talking about God's kingdom coming on earth.
     
  18. Andre

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    This is a translation error. The original greek states "My kingdom is not from this world..." This changes the meaning drastically.
     
  19. Dragoon68

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    The Bible tells us that some of Christ's followers saw Him ascend to Heaven and that He would come back some day in like manner:

    Acts 1:9-11: "And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven."

    The Bible tells us that when Christ comes back it will be a immediate and tremendous event. Time and space as we know it now will end:

    1 Thessalonians 4:16-17: "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

    Revelations 6:14-17: "And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"


    The Kingdom of God is not, nor is it building up to be, a unified international government of men. The Bible states the Kingdom of God is within us:

    Luke 20-21:
    "And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you."


    Maintaining independence is the best way our nation can be positioned to make sound choices about whom we wish to help and whom we do not. Historically, that independence has helped us be one of the most generous nations on the face of the earth. Our "national walls" have not hindered our ability but, rather, have enhanced it.

    Diluting our ability to decide among the many other nations with differing agendas is a certain formula for failure through poor decisions, corruption, and waste. This has already been demonstrated many times through various United Nations programs and even without our own national boundaries as more "help" and "sharing" has moved away from individuals, private agencies, and more local government to our federal government. World government by man is a certain disaster through the very nature of man.

    [SIZE=+1]


    This scripture from Galations 3 means that we are brothers and sisters in Christ with all our fellow believers and came to Him by the same saving Grace not through our lineage.

    It in no way forbids us to also be members of specific families, cities, states, nations, cultures, or any other grouping that defines man. In fact, it makes it rather clear that Christ's followers are scattered among such diverse groups.

    Let's widen the view of your quoted scripture:

    Galatians 3:1 // 29: "O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? ...... Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? ...... Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. ......That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. ...... Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. ...... But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. ....... Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."

    This was about clarifying that the promise of Abraham applied to the Gentiles - not just to the Jew - and the key was in being "children of God by faith in Christ Jesus" rather than through a specific family genealogy.

    It fully recognized the differences of among men and nations. It did not advocate that they come under one government, language, culture, race, etc.

    [/SIZE]
     
  20. Andre

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    Obviously this scripture is true. But surely you know that I can bury the reader in Scripture that shows that, in an admittedly mysterious sense, Jesus is present with us, not least through the Spirit.

    I do not think you can argue that since Jesus "leaves us bodily" this means that I am wrong in my assertion that the Scriptural message is that His kingdom here on earth has already been initiated. If your take on matters here is correct, why were Paul and Jesus seen as such threats? If the present age is one where the "Kingdom" is purely something that goes in our inner selves, then why does Paul use the same term to describe his message - the term "gospel" - that was used in those days to denote the ascendance of a new emperor to the throne in Rome. The gospel message is one where Jesus supplants Caesar as ruler of this present world.

    It is that message that got Paul into so much trouble. And I could make similar arguments about Jesus: the parables are not about "inner spirituality" or about "life in heaven" - they are politically subversive coded statements about the way that world is to be run now that God's kingdom has been established in this very world.

    Has God's Kingdom over this present world already been established? Here is what Jesus had to say:

    2"(A)Repent, for (B)the kingdom of heaven is at hand."

    And as you go, preach, saying, ' The kingdom of heaven is at hand.'

    And in case, one is going to argue that the term "kingdom of heaven" is not about life in the public square but is only about what is "in us", we have this, suggesting that the kingdom is very much a "public" thing:

    12"(L)From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and violent men take it by force.

    But (A)if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

    And this one:

    Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."

    The kingdom is initiated with Jesus entry into our world 2000 years ago. We are not waiting for it to happen, as you seem to suggest

    I do not necessarily disagree with some of the specifics that I think are behind your posts in respect to the degree to which national borders should be maintained.

    But I see the Scriptures as clearly teaching that Jesus is already at work in this present world building up a kingdom and to which we owe our primary allegiance.

    And by the way, I do not see how you can assert that "time and space" will end. Jesus is coming not to rescue us from creation, He is coming to restore creation. And we know from the scriptures that there will be "time" in the world to come:

    Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations.

    Healing is a process, and processes necessitate time.
     

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