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Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Jailminister, Oct 16, 2003.
That is awesome! It gave me goosebumps. Thank you for the link!
However, of course, I'll be giving my criticism.
This animation - which you linked to - mixes verses in such a way as to where it wrenches them from the original context, makes grand assumptions, and takes verses that do not belong together and splices them together.
The wars and rumors of wars, the persecutions, the Gospel being taken to the end of the Earth, etc.. these things happened in "this genea" just as Jesus had promised, and he did come back riding on the clouds (According to what this means Biblically; see Isaiah 19 & 20) in one generation after his death in judgement of Jerusalem. If you were alive at that time and witnessed the slaughter of 1.1 million of your kinsmen while the Christians fled to the transjordan city of Pella, well, let's just say you'd probably consider that Jesus had returned in judgement.
And no, I'm not a Preterist.
Come, Lord Jesus!
The ones who claimed GOD's authority belonged to them 2000 years ago were not expecting "Jesus" to
Carson, is there secular evidence that supports what you say? That is, we have secular evidence that a man called Jesus was crucified on Golgotha. We have secular evidence that reports the excitement among the followers of the Christ a short time after he was buried where those followers claim to have seen Jesus alive and walking amongst them.
What secular evidence supports your claim that the Christ came back "in the clouds" and took the dead in Christ followed closely by the living in Christ to be with him in the air as scriptures reveal must happen?
I don't find it in scripture that Jesus is to come back in the clouds and cast judgment upon the earth. Perhaps you can enlighten us all.
Jailminister, why did they/you use a Roman Catholic churchbuilding in that presentation?
For those not in the know, the symbol on top of a traditional churchbuilding's tower tells you which denomination is using that building.
The cross is the RC symbol.
The rooster is the Calvinist symbol.
The swan is the Lutheran symbol.
The ship is the Zwinglian symbol.
The house is the (ana-)baptist symbol.
Ofcourse it doesn't always work out that way in practice.
Very nicely done. The graphics and everything is very professional looking. And I really really like the music.
That part where the "light" which is Christ comes in the air also gave me goosebumps.
Because the resurrection of our Lord and His return is the hope of all Christians. We look forward to eternal loving union with Him in a bliss unknown to man at this time. He is the desire of every Christian's heart.
Of course, with Carson, I also must take issue with the time indicators which this clip sets forth. The idea of a "rapture of the true believers" followed by the beast of Catholicism persecuting the Jews is not evidenced in Scripture except by a terrible tormenting and twisting of verses.
You realize that there is an answer, but it is not something that can be given without considerable study and page after page of writings.
I would suggest you go to Ed Steven's page on Preterism (I AM a Preterist) and do some reading there to see how these things were fulfilled in the first century in the destruction of Jerusalem.
Matthew 23 and 24 describe the coming destruction of Jerusalem, yet for some reason, rapturists take Matthew 23 and make it separate from Matthew 24 by some 2000+ years. There were no chapter divisions in the for hundreds of years. Matthew 23 and 24 are speaking of the same issue:
Mt 23:34 ¶ Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
Prophesy of the apostolic ministry to the world and the persecution of the Jews upon the apostles.
35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
That UPON YOU...meaning those men who were standing right there at that time listening to Jesus pronounce their doom. All of the blood of the righteous would come crashing down upon their heads in judgment.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
Matthew 24 is a further description of "all these things" i.e., the sure wrath of God upon a nation who not only rejected His Christ, but persecuted His people to the death.
Here are some further "time indicators" which point to the AD 70 destruction of Jerusalem as being that which Matthew 24 speaks about.
Mt 24:1 ¶ And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
The locus of this discussion is the Temple.
2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
This is a very clear description of the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. Cannot be anything else.
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
Notice that in Matthew 24, Jesus treats the above questions as if they are one single event. He does not respond by saying "Okay. these things will happen at such a time, then you will see the sign of my coming, and then the end of the world will come."
Also, there is a HORRIBLE mistranslation in the text here from the Greek. The last question should read "...and of the end of the age"
Go look it up for yourself in your concordance. The word used there is "aion" and it means "age" not world. It is beyond me how anyone translated that "world", unless, of course, they had an agenda to fill.
The end of the age is the end of the Old Covenant age. Israel was given one more chance to repent and bring forth fruit as the fig tree of God (Luke 13: 6 - 9). This they failed at, and the FINAL AND COMPLETE END of the Old Covenant, the end of the "age" came in AD 70.
Incidentally, there is a secular book, written by the Jewish historian Josephius, in which he describes the events which took place in Jerusalem during the 3 1/2 year Jewish civil war. One of the things which he reports is "signs in the sky" which filled the people there with great fear inasmuch as these were portents of some great calamity.
The Christians of that time also believed the report of the Lord regarding the destruction which was to come upon Jerusalem:
Lu 21:20 ¶ And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
Notice the correlation between Matthew 23:35 and Luke 21:22 above. "That all things which are written may come to pass."
History records that the armies of Vaspasian surrounded Jerusalem and laid seige to it. During that time, the emperor died, and Vaspasian withdrew his troops from the city and turned the army over to his son Titus so that he could return to Rome to pursue becoming the next emperor. The believers within, seeing this and remembering the dire warning of our Lord, gathered together what they could quickly grasp and fled the city at night, going to refuge in the nearby city of Pella.
Just some facts and thoughts.
PS I look for His coming also, but the one which is spoken of in scripture in John 5: 28 -29, not some fanciful "rapture" which was dreamed up by the enemies of the Church to malign Her and turn people from Her in fear.
Jailminister - excellent Animation!
It is the truth of Christ's soon return. A truth that some Christians turn from - not knowing what the Bible teaches.
Matt 24 is in complete and full agreement with the truth presented in that animation. So also is 1Thess 4 - the rapture depicted accurately - and according to the timeline the Bible lays out.
In Matt 24 we find this world-wide catastrophic - end of the world.
24 ""For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.
25 ""Behold, I have told you in advance.
26 ""So if they say to you, "Behold, He is in the wilderness,' do not go out, or, "Behold, He is in the inner rooms,' do not believe them.
No chance of being deceived into thinking that the return of Christ would be localized - or Jerusalem only.
27 "" For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be.
28 "" Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.
No chance of being deceived into thinking that "EVERY EYE" will NOT see Him.
29 ""But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.
No chance of being deceived into thinking that ALL NATIONS of the earth will not mourn when they see Him or being deceived into thinking that world-wide sign in the sun and moon and stars will not be seen OR that the nations that mourn will "NOT SEE the Son of Man coming".
31 ""And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.
And so the Loud Cry, the Great Trumpet of Matt 24 and 1Thess 4 - are one and the same. The rapture is exactly as the animation describes it!
Your speculation does not hold up to the clear teaching of God's Word. There was no second coming 2000 years ago - and even the RCC does not teach that. (I think you finally admitted that after a while).
Rather the 2nd coming is as Matt 24 describes it -- world wide "ALL tribes of the earth will MOURN when they SEE Him" and anyone claiming a "localized" 2nd coming seen only by a few - are declared to be "in error" according to Christ's teaching in Matt 24. The GREAT persecution of the church (the Dark Ages of centuries of inquisition and torture) along with the persecution by pagan Rome - is mentioned in Matt 24 - and it precedes the 2nd coming according to that chapter.
By that speculation - we had "another second coming" when 6 million Jews were killed by the Germans.
And we had a great many second comings as millions have died in WWI and WWII in addition to the the Jews.
Your doctrine simply does not hold up to the light of scripture. The Animation seems to be in much better agreement with scripture than your guesswork.
I have had the opportunity to share this with friends and everyone has really enjoyed it.
I wonder how much of a shock this will be to our Catholic bretheren? What are "they" expecting by contrast??