Ephesians 1: 13

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by amixedupmom, Jun 24, 2004.

  1. amixedupmom

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    Could the mark that they are talking about here be the same mark in Revelation?

    I'm curious on this subject because it seems to be the same description.
     
  2. massdak

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    is that the correct verse? i see no mention of it
     
  3. amixedupmom

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    I was reading in the NIV translation. Which seems to differ a lot in the KJV 1611.

    Loosely it's talking about being marked with the Holy Spirit. And, In Revelation wouldn't you know I cannot find it. I remember reading about the diffrent marks. How one was the Mark of the beast which is 666, but there was the Mark of God refered to as the Holy Ghost. What i'm wondering is this the same ? Or diffrent?
     
  4. Grasshopper

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    Eph 1:13 in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth, the gospel of your salvation,-- in whom, having also believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

    Rev 7:
    3 saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we shall have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.
    4 And I heard the number of them that were sealed, a hundred and forty and four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the children of Israel:

    Paul and John are speaking of the same people.

    James 1:18 Of his own will he brought us forth by the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

    Rev 14:4 These are they that were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they that follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were purchased from among men, to be the firstfruits unto God and unto the Lamb.

    Here John and James are again referring to the same people. The 144000 are firstfruits and sealed. They are the believing 1st century Jews who were the first to be saved and enter into the New Covenant. The number 144000 symbolically represents them.
     
  5. amixedupmom

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  6. GODzThunder

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    that sounds like a historicists view of revelation???
     
  7. Bro Tony

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    Where have you been? Brother Grasshopper is a preterist and holds a historic view of Revelation.

    Bro Tony
     
  8. superdave

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    Those who are saved are sealed until the day of redemption. That will in the future include those who will be part of the 144,000 jewish witnesses.

    The Seal in Revelation I do not believe is the same sealing spoken of by Paul. It is the work of sealing done by the Holy Spirit at the time of salvation.

    I do not hold to a historic view of Revelation
     
  9. Pastor Larry

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    No ... the seal of hte Spirit is the mark of God's ownership and exists in this present age. The Mark in Rev is something entirely different and exists only during the Tribulation.
     
  10. Grasshopper

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    Scriptual proof?
     
  11. Pastor Larry

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    ???? How about the context talking about two entirely different things. The seal of the Spirit is something that clearly takes place now for every believer. It is the guarantee of their salvation. The mark of Revelation is in a specific context of the Tribulation and the circumstances surrounding it are entirely different. The burden of proof would be on you to show any sort of connection. But there is no exegetical connection. Two entirely different things in two entirely dissimilar contexts.
     
  12. Grasshopper

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    I guess "firstfruits" would fall under the same umbrella? Two different "firstfruits", the latter being the second "firstfruits".

    Or perhaps the NT was written to the same group of people. Nah
     
  13. Pastor Larry

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    What??? I am not following you on that ... Help me understand where you are going with that? BTW, it is quite possible that there are two different firstfruits in the Scripture. After all there were firstfruits in teh OT, Christ is a first fruit (1 Cor 15); the household of Stephenas was a first fruit (1 Cor 16:15); the "we" of James 1:18 is a first fruit (depending on who you think that is); Rev 14 has some who are first fruits who have not defiled themselves with women but have gone whereever the lamb goes.

    So yes, there are different firstfruits ... What's the point?
     
  14. Dr. Bob

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    Even the feasts of Israel were based on various "firstfruits"

    Firstfruit of the barley harvest
    Firstfruit of the wheat harvest

    Don't get hung up with English words here.

    Same Greek word for "seal" is used in Eph 1 and Rev 9, but also is Rev 6 to talk about seals on the scroll of judgment and the seal of John the Baptist's words in John 3. They are not the same.
     
  15. Grasshopper

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    Sorry for the confusion. The 144000 are both sealed and called the "firstfruits". Paul and James in their letters are writing to 1st century Jews and are told they are sealed and the "firstfruits". In Revelation we have John calling a group of people(Jews) both sealed and "firstfruits". It is my belief that Paul, James, and John are speaking of the same group of people. Those Jews who were the first saved under the New Covenant. They came out of the Old and into the New, they were the "firstfruits". So the "firstfruits of I Cor. and James are not different "firstfruits", they are the same group/generation. How can people at the end of time be called "firstfruits"? If so then all thru-out history are also "firstfruits". This interpretation renders the term meaningless. This is a similiar approach taken by those who believe the "Last Days" is the entire Church Age. Again this renders the term "Last Days" as meaningless since everyone from Heb. 1:1 till today live in the "Last Days".

    The number 144000 is symbolic of the Jews(12 tribes) who accept the Messiah and enter into the New Covenant/New Heavens and New Earth. The are "virgins" in contrast to those who fornicated with the Harlot.
     
  16. Pastor Larry

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    David called Solomon "son." Saul called Jonathan "son." God called Jesus "son." Are they all referring to the same person? Of course not. I do not mean to insult your intelligence by saying that, but I use that to illustrate a very simple point. The fact that two authors use the same basic language to describe something does not mean they are describing the same thing.

    There are some very good reasons why they are not describing the same thing. First, the preterist view of Revelation simply remains untenable. John was writing prophecy at the end of hte first century. It has not yet been fulfilled. John was writing to people who will live during the tribulation. Paul was writing to believers in the first century about their status in Christ. These are two different groups of people, no matter how they might be related. I believe that the people John writes of will have the seal that Paul speaks of becuase all believers have it. I do not believe that the people Paul speaks of will have the seal that John speaks of.

    The people at the end of time are called the firstfruits becuase of their status to others. The Last Days is the entire period of church history as defined by Scripture. We are living in the last days, and have been. Think about it. The NT said they were living in the last days. We are still living. If the NT was the last days, then what comes after "last"? Nothing ... Therefore, we are still living in the last days.

    BTW, there is no reason to take the 144,000 as symbolic.

    In the end, you are coming to the passage with your position already in mind, rather than letting the passage speak for itself. You are failing to make crucial distinction that the text makes becuase you assume a common audience when in fact the audience is not common, nor is the topic of writing. These distinctions help to understand properly what Scripture says. Failure to make them leads to the kind of confusion demonstrated in your posts, which confusion is typical of the people who hold your position. [​IMG]
     
  17. HankD

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    Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

    Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye [being] in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

    Eph 3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles

    Eph 4:17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,

    HankD
     
  18. Grasshopper

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    I don’t have a problem with that. However it doesn’t mean they aren’t describing the same thing either. The burden of proof is on you to prove they are different.

    Why?

    64-66 AD

    It has.

    True

    True

    False. Why are they not the same? Is there any scripture to prove it or is it just your eschatological view point that won’t allow it?

    Agree.

    Why? Proof in scripture?

    Yes, who are the others? They are those who follow after them. Therefore anyone after the firstfruits are NOT firstfruits. Does firstfruit have a meaning?

    The Bible doesn't mention the "end of time".

    Where does scripture say that the Last Days run the entire Church Age? In I John 2:18 John says it is the “last hour”. Are we also living in the “last hour”?

    Makes all those preachers who have sermons on the “living in the last days” look foolish doesn’t it?

    The reason you believe the last days run the entire church age is because if they didn’t, then the prophecies were all fulfilled in the past. We can’t have that can we? The Biblical “last days” were the last days of the Old Covenant/Jewish Age. To make “last days” mean centuries is to mock the Word. Why do so many insist on literalism yet when it comes to time-indicators dealing with eschatology they insist near ,soon, “at hand” and “last days” don’t mean what they would normally mean?

    Pre-1900 there were plenty of scholars who saw it symbolically. Of course that was pre-Scofield.

    John Gill
    [and there were] sealed an hundred [and] forty, [and] four thousand:
    which is a square number arising from twelve, the square root of it, being just twelve times twelve thousand; and may denote their being the true and genuine offspring of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, holding their doctrine, and being built on their foundation;

    Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible
    A one-volume commentary prepared by Robert Jamieson, A. R. Fausset and David Brown. It was published in 1871.

    144,000 (or whatever number is meant by this symbolical number),


    People's New Testament
    This work was written in 1891 for the novice student. It contains aids to help understand every verse

    4-8. And I heard the number of them which were sealed. The number first named is one hundred and forty-four thousand, twelve thousand from each of the twelve tribes of Israel. These numbers are not to be taken literally, but only signify that a great number, not a countless number, but a part of each tribe of Israel, accepted the gospel. Of the tribes Ephraim appears under the name of Joseph, and Dan is entirely omitted, a fact possibly due to the early falling away of Dan into idolatry The number twelve is preserved by counting Levi. For another appearance of the one hundred and forty-four thousand, see 14:1.

    Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament A.T. Robertson, a renowned Greek New Testament scholar, takes the reader verse-by-verse, painting word pictures to describe the actions of Jesus and the early Christians.


    A hundred and forty and four thousand (ekaton tesserakonta tessarev xiliadev).
    Symbolical, of course, and not meant to be a complete number of the sealed (or saved) even in that generation, let alone for all time. The number connotes perfection (Alford), 12x12x1000 = a hundred and forty-four thousands (xiliadev, 5:11). Nominative absolute, not agreeing in case either with aritmon (accusative) or espragismenwn (genitive). So as to the case of espragismenoi.


    Coffman Commentaries on the Old and New Testament

    Who are these 144,000? They are the saved of earth, servants of God just mentioned by the angel, particularly the Christians of all ages until the end of time. This meaning alone could have had any comfort at all for the suffering saints who first received this prophecy. The idea that John here comforted the Christians who were in the throes of a great tribulation brought upon them by the fleshly Jews who had murdered the Messiah and hindered the truth all over the world, with a vision of such a vast company of saved and redeemed Jews (literally) is absolutely preposterous. See chapter introduction, above, under (1).
    Theories which would read these 144,000 as, "the total number of the martyrs that must be completed before the prayers of those in heaven (Revelation 6:11) could be answered," F30 are equally preposterous and are founded upon an inadequate conception of God who simply cannot be properly viewed as approving any specified number of martyrs. It is not martyrs that God desires, but Christians. Furthermore, the sealed here are not called martyrs.
    The theory that these 144,000 are literal Jews from racial Israel is attractive to some, and was ably advocated by Seiss:
    When God says "children of Israel," I do not understand him to mean any but people of Jewish blood, be they Christians or not. And when he speaks of the twelve sons of Jacob, and gives the names of the tribes, it is impossible for me to believe that he means Gentiles in any sense or degree, whether they be believers or not. F31

    The blindness of this view is identical with that of the Pharisees who claimed to be sons of Abraham (and, literally, they were); but Jesus said, "If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham" (John 8:39). John's .calling the church the twelve tribes of Israel came directly from the lips of Jesus (Matthew 19:28); and therefore "fleshly Israel," called by Jesus himself "the children of the devil" (John 8:44), simply cannot fit into this passage in any way. That our interpretation entails come difficulty isfreely admitted. Smith called this, "a passage of unusual difficulty"; F32 but the difficulty of trying to make the tribes of literal Israel fit the meaning here is far more difficult.
    The 144,000 ...
    This is a number made up of 12 x 12 x 1,000. Earlier in Revelation we had a number made up of 12 + 12, that of the "four and twenty elders" (Revelation 4:4); but here the "twelve" is multiplied by itself, and then again by a thousand, indicating completeness and perfection in the ultimate degree. What is meant? "That not one of those who are worthy shall be overlooked or forgotten." F33 It also carries the thought that the natural universe, the powers of evil, and the ravages of time shall not interfere with God's plans until all are accomplished. Therefore, the 144,000 are a symbol of the total number of the redeemed, a definite number, unknown to us, but surely known by God. It is the same as "the innumerable company" of Rev. 7:9.

    I would apply those words to you. I use to hold your position. It wasn't till I opened my mind and was willing to put my pre-suppositions aside and see what the scriptures actually taught. Then I read the Reformers and saw they also held to many of the views I hold to. Why are Spurgeon, Gill, and Owen wrong but Lindsey, Van Impe, and Walvood right?
     
  19. Grasshopper

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    Ephesians 1

    1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus through the will of God, to the saints that are at Ephesus , and the faithful in Christ Jesus:

    James 1

    1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are of the Dispersion, greeting.

    Rev 1: 4 John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace, from him who is and who was and who is to come; and from the seven Spirits that are before his throne;
     

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