Ephesians 1:4-5

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Helen, Mar 17, 2006.

  1. Helen

    Helen
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/Helen2.gif>

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2001
    Messages:
    11,703
    Likes Received:
    1
    These a 'big' verses for Calvinists. Let's take a look at what they are saying.

    Now, remember that, grammatically, prepositional phrases are modifiers. Thus, I have put them in parentheses and bolded the rest of the two verses.

    King James:
    According as he hath chosen us [in him] [before the foundation] [of the world] that we should be holy and without blame [before him] [in love]:
    Having predestinated us [unto the adoption] [of children] [by Jesus Christ] [unto himself], according to the good pleasure [of his will].


    NIV:
    For he chose us [in him] [before the creation] [of the world] to be holy and blameless [in his sight]. [In love] he predestined us to be adopted as his sons [through Jesus Christ] [in accordance] [with his pleasure and will].

    In short, these verses tell us that those who believe will be transformed to be holy and blameless and adopted as his sons. They do not indicate in any way, shape, or form that any particular people themselves were chosen to be believers. They indicate that those who ARE believers are predestined to a certain end, or goal.

    The prepositional phrases tell us WHEN God decided this, and WHY.

    But for Calvinists to claim they indicate that certain people were chosen to be saved and the rest damned to hell is to rip these verses out of context and use them to deny many other passages in the Bible which tell us to seek, to not harden our hearts, to reason with God, to go to Jesus, to repent, to believe...
     
  2. OldRegular

    OldRegular
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2004
    Messages:
    22,678
    Likes Received:
    53
    Helen,

    You make a good case for election. No one doubts that those chosen before the foundation of the world were chosen to Salvation in Jesus Christ, the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. [Revelation 13:8]
     
  3. Helen

    Helen
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/Helen2.gif>

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2001
    Messages:
    11,703
    Likes Received:
    1
    It does not say at all that the believers were chosen themselves, but that those who are believers were chosen from the foundation to BECOME His children and to BECOME holy. By trying to truncate the passage to say that the believers themselves were chosen is to deny what the rest of the passage says.
     
  4. npetreley

    npetreley
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2002
    Messages:
    7,359
    Likes Received:
    0
    [In love] he predestined us to be adopted as his sons [through Jesus Christ] [in accordance] [with his pleasure and will].

    He predestined us to be adopted as sons in accordance with his pleasure and will (not our choice, His choice).

    So how do we get predestined to be adopted as sons unless we are also predestined to be saved? Or does God adopt the unsaved as sons, too, and make them holy and blameless? Or did He predestine all men to be adopted as sons but failed miserably?
     
  5. Brother James

    Brother James
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2005
    Messages:
    660
    Likes Received:
    0
    :rolleyes:
    blue car pink dog bridge house sky pie barn.
     
  6. Helen

    Helen
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/Helen2.gif>

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2001
    Messages:
    11,703
    Likes Received:
    1
    Thank you, Brother James. That was terribly enlightening.

    npetreley, I can decide that all who come to my house will get apple pie. That does not determine who comes to my house, only what I will do for those who are arriving.

    God determined that all believers should be adopted as children of God. That did not deal with who the believers would be, only what those who were believers would become. Ref. John 1.
     
  7. OldRegular

    OldRegular
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2004
    Messages:
    22,678
    Likes Received:
    53
    Ephesians 1:3-7, KJV
    3. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
    4. According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
    5. Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
    6. To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
    7. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;


    Helen
    I don't read as well as I used to do, perhaps my age. Could you highlight the word believers in the above passage, a part of which you posted.

    If you do I will quote Tennessee Ernie Ford and say "bless your little pea pikin heart" [​IMG] At least I think it was Tennessee Ernie! :D
     
  8. Hope of Glory

    Hope of Glory
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2005
    Messages:
    4,807
    Likes Received:
    0
    That would be the "us" which refers back to verse 1, which refers to Paul and those to whom he's writing; the saints who are believers. This is not addressed to all believers, only those who are referred to as "saints". The KJV says "saints and faithful", but the Greek says "the saints who are also believers". Thankfully, our salvation does not depend upon our being faithful, but this epistle is addressed to those who are.
     
  9. Calvibaptist

    Calvibaptist
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2006
    Messages:
    892
    Likes Received:
    0
    Helen, you misunderstand the importance of small words (perhaps by all your brackets and parentheses).

    The verse says, very plainly, He chose us before the foundation of the world. The next word (that) indicates that the next phrase is the purpose behind the first phrase. The purpose for which he chose us before the foundation of the world is so that we should be holy and without blame.

    This is what we have been saying all along. To say this verse has nothing to do with electing certain people (us) is ridiculous and not doing justice to the actual words that are used.

    Notice that Paul does not say that God chose that we should be holy and without blame (although that is true). Paul says He chose US. That is election. That is God choosing certain people and declaring a purpose for choosing them.
     
  10. Calvibaptist

    Calvibaptist
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2006
    Messages:
    892
    Likes Received:
    0
    Just so you know, the Greek phrase in verse 4 is kathows elegexato hemas. Literally translated it is "just as He chose (elected) us." Gee, that sounds remarkably like it is normally translated.

    The word hemas, translated "us" is accusative, which is the form of the direct object taken by the verb elegexato, or "chose."

    There really is no way getting around the fact that, gramatically, this verse says "He chose us."
     
  11. Helen

    Helen
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/Helen2.gif>

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2001
    Messages:
    11,703
    Likes Received:
    1
    OldRegular, Hope of Glory is right. Here is the beginning of the passage and of the letter, just a few verses before what I quoted in the opening post:

    Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,
    To the saints in Ephesus, the faithful in Christ Jesus:
    Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
    Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ.
    For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless....


    I hope that helps. The 'us' refers to the antecedent "saints...the faithful in Christ Jesus." These are believers.

    -----------

    Calvibaptist, you are truncating the verse. You state: He chose us before the foundation of the world. And you put a period there. That period, that full stop, is not in the text in any translation. Rather, He chose us to be blameless and holy in his sight. That was His choice concerning believers before the world began -- that those who believe should be holy and blameless by the very work that He did through Christ Jesus. We who are believers were predestined to be His children, not predestined simply to 'be', period. The context is very important here as well as in the other 'Calvinist' passages, all of which depend on the context being ignored.
     
  12. Me4Him

    Me4Him
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2004
    Messages:
    2,214
    Likes Received:
    0
    This part you got right, to be "holy and without blame", but nothing about being saved/lost.

    Does the verse say they would be "Saved and lost" or "holy and without blame"???


    But was the "CHOICE" made by the "Sovereign will" of "predestination", or by the "FOREKNOWLEDGE" of who would/wouldn't accept salvation??

    It's in the above question that Calvin gave the wrong answer as to how the Chosen was "elected", Calvin said Predestination, scripture says Foreknowledge.

    Ro 8:29 For whom he did foreknow,

    he also

    did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son,

    The only thing "predestine" was "conforming to Jesus images", but that can only occur "AFTER" salvation,

    nothing is mentioned about God predestine who would be saved/lost, however that was known by the "Foreknowledge" of God knowing who would/wouldn't chose salvation, but it was not predestined.

    The "major" flaws in calvin is that it boxes God in until "nothing" can change, God can't even change his mind, God repented of the evil he was going to bring to Israel once, and he can do it again, even cancelling the trib, "IF" everyone believed, under calvin doctrine of predestination, that wouldn't be possible.

    Calvin had a "Fatalist view" of God, condemning sinners with wrath/pleasure, but the God of the scriptures is a God of love offering "Redeemption" for the "Whole world" through Jesus.

    And as important, failed to understand "WHY" salvation only come through "PERSONAL FAITH" in Jesus,

    there is a "purpose" for requiring a person to have "Faith" in Jesus before God will save,

    A purpose for which predestination eliminates and can't answer.
     
  13. OldRegular

    OldRegular
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2004
    Messages:
    22,678
    Likes Received:
    53
    You are correct Helen but He chose us before the foundation of the world, before He created man, before we were believers. We are believers because He chose us. Did He know that those He chose would become believers? Yes, because He knew, as recorded in Ephesians 2:1-8 , that when we were spiritually dead in trespass and sins He would make us alive and give us the Faith by which we become believers.
     
  14. Helen

    Helen
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/Helen2.gif>

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2001
    Messages:
    11,703
    Likes Received:
    1
    If He chose who would become believers then He also chose who would not become believers. He created millions of people for the purpose of sending them to eternal torment. He did not love them. He did not love the whole world. He DID desire that some should perish.

    Can't go with that one. It is against what the Bible says.
     
  15. Calvibaptist

    Calvibaptist
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2006
    Messages:
    892
    Likes Received:
    0
    No, I did not truncate the verse. I said, grammatically, the direct object of the verb "chose" is us. The direct object of the verb "chose" is NOT the purpose of making us holy and without blame. There is a big difference.

    He chose us. He chose us in order to make the us that He chose holy and without blame. This is what the sentence says in both Greek and English. Don't try to change it to get rid of election.
     
  16. Calvibaptist

    Calvibaptist
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2006
    Messages:
    892
    Likes Received:
    0
    Your system has that problem too. God created millions of people even after He looked down the corridors of time and saw that they wouldn't choose Him. He created them anyway, knowing that they would reject Him and go to hell. he did not love them. He did not love the whole world. He did desire that some should perish.

    Do you see your problem? Unless you are an open theist and believe that God doesn't really know the future, you have to believe that God knows who will and will not choose Him. He creates anyway. He is not off the hook for your accusation whether you believe the way I do or the way you do.

    Yet God, in Romans 9 says He created some vessels for honor and some for dishonor. When accused, He responds, "Who are you to reply against God?"
     
  17. Helen

    Helen
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/Helen2.gif>

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2001
    Messages:
    11,703
    Likes Received:
    1
    Calvi, if Calvinists were to back up to that position, they would have a point. I also do not understand why God allowed so many to choose against Him, but choose they did. And it was an honest choice, not one programmed into them.
     
  18. Calvibaptist

    Calvibaptist
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2006
    Messages:
    892
    Likes Received:
    0
    But we will only back up as far as the Bible will allow us. I just quoted Romans 9, which says that God created some vessels for honor and some for dishonor. Some he prepared for glory and some He prepared for destruction. This is what the Bible says. I must believe it. As Luther said, "Here I stand. I can do no other. So help me God."

    Romans 9:18-24 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. 19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? 22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
     
  19. Helen

    Helen
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/Helen2.gif>

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2001
    Messages:
    11,703
    Likes Received:
    1
    And, somehow, all that must be reconciled with "Choose this day whom you will serve..."
    "Harden not your hearts..."
    "Come, reason with me"...

    etc.

    These are being addressed to unsaved people and God is not a mocker.
     
  20. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    May 13, 2005
    Messages:
    12,723
    Likes Received:
    0
    Calvinbaptist:

    Romans, chapter 9

    "25": As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

    How could they be both. They were not His people and then they were His people if they were chosen to not be His before the foundation of the world?
     

Share This Page

Loading...