Ephesians 1:4

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Ben Elohim, Feb 23, 2005.

  1. Ben Elohim

    Ben Elohim
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    Have you ever noticed that this verse does not say:

    "He chose us before the foundation of the world."

    I find it very interesting that so many will refer to this passage in this way when it says no such thing.

    When were you first "in him?"
     
  2. johnp.

    johnp.
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    Hello Ben.

    Of course not because it does not say that. :cool:
    If you put that, 'in Him' back you will notice that it was before the creation of the world.

    johnp. :cool:
     
  3. Ben Elohim

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    Of course not because it does not say that. :cool:
    If you put that, 'in Him' back you will notice that it was before the creation of the world.

    johnp. :cool:
    </font>[/QUOTE]So then, we can safely say that you were "in Christ" before the foundation of the world correct?
     
  4. johnp.

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    Yes. :cool:

    johnp.
     
  5. Ben Elohim

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    So you existed in him before the creation of the world and you were also in him before you were saved? Is that correct?
     
  6. johnp.

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    Hello Ben.

    He chose me in Him before the creation of the world so how could I exist in Him before creation? :cool:
    johnp.
     
  7. Ben Elohim

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    He chose me in Him before the creation of the world so how could I exist in Him before creation? :cool:
    johnp.
    </font>[/QUOTE]And yet you claimed to have been in him before creation?

    BE: So then, we can safely say that you were "in Christ" before the foundation of the world correct?
    johnp: Yes.

    You will also notice that the verse does not say, "He chose for me to be in him before the foundation of the world" either does it?

    Perhaps you will also notice that the term "in him" does not implicity answer the question HOW but the question WHERE.

    And I ask again, were you "in him" before you were saved?
     
  8. johnp.

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    Hello Ben.

    I did not say I was in Him but that I was chosen in Him because the scripture says;
    For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love
    He was able to do that for me because He is the God who gives life to the dead and calls things that are not as though they were.
    BE? In Christ before creation as a thing to be realised. Elected. Redeemed. Atoned for.
    He loved me and created the creation to possess me. I came into actual existence at a point in time but my God has had His eye on me from eternity as a thing hoped for! :cool: The revealing of His glory was always upper most in His mind and what He did for those He chose in Christ before the creation of the world reveals His glory.
    No.
    It says, For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love Why do you keep saying it does not say this or that? What's the matter with leaving it as it is. It makes perfectly good sense that he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love.
    If I say I choose to have my son in my wife I do not suppose the boy is already made do I? Be no fun in that would there? It would mean that I chose a vessel. Jesus was that vessel for me. Offbeat answer for you. I was assigned my place. In Him.
    It was a choice God made. Some were to be made for noble purposes and some for common usage. The common were also chosen for their parts.
    Yes because I was chosen in Him before the creation of the world! :cool:

    johnp.
     
  9. Ben Elohim

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    That is an interesting viewpoint since Paul's theology indicates that those who are "in Christ" are necessarily those who have been saved according to Ephesians 2:8. I expect you already know this fact but choose to forget about it for the moment and somehow claim you have managed to be in Christ not only before you were saved, but before you or anything else existed.

    I wonder how it is that everyone else had to believe into Christ to be found in him but you somehow didn't.

    More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ, and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith.

    Just maybe the passage really means that before the creation of the world God chose Christ to be the place where people would be holy and blameless in God's sight. Just maybe eh?

    He is after all the Elect One of God and so just as one becomes a son of God by union with the Son of God one also becomes Elect by union with the Elect one of God. No, that would be too simple.

    For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you

    [ February 23, 2005, 06:22 PM: Message edited by: Ben Elohim ]
     
  10. johnp.

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    Ben.

    Since those who have been realised by God are so by His Grace. Those who are yet to be are the things God calls are. He is the God who gives life to the dead and calls things that are not as though they were.
    I am not saved by repentance or belief but by the grace of God. If I was not included in Christ before the creation of the world would I be in your family? GE 3:15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel." So you see I am proud of my family heritage.
    There have only ever been two tribes. True Israel and the rest. Those ones that are the enemies of my God. Who do you wish to be in before the creation of the world? Not that it matters what you want. My God is Sovereign.
    Is it me that is the liar? It was you that twisted my words and tried to make something out of nothing. Not one word as far as I see to offer apologies or correct a mistake you made. What you say to that? Did you twist or did you make an error? Either way your character is on display.
    You say I say the very thing I avoided saying? :cool:
    Well you see I am different from everybody else. I was chosen in Him before I was created. Can't answer for the rest of them but if that is what you believe they did who am I to question you? That one needs to believe in Christ and to be found in Him before the creation of everything seemed a bit difficult to me at the, time was it, I did not actually exist but in the heart of God?
    God does not deal with His Children in maybes but lets us know where we stand with Him. He tells us the truth. The truth is that God did choose Christ to be a Vessel. That is what I said in my last post didn't I?

    ...God chose Christ to be the place where people would be holy and blameless in God's sight. Not just people but those He chose. :cool: Us as opposed to them. Me as opposed to those who oppose my Father.
    Why is that too simple? For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love Simple as that?
    I'm am as sure as you that God foreknew Himself! :cool:

    johnp.
     
  11. Ben Elohim

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    I find it amazing that that you claimed to have been in Christ while you were not yet rescued from the Dominion of Darkness and transferred into the Kingdom of the Beloved Son. But there you are claiming to be in Christ when you were an enemy of God and before you were... well in Christ.

    So let's get at the truth now okay and stop with the contrivances:

    It says "He chose us.... TO BE."

    1. Who is "US?" Well that is plainly evident from verse 3 - born again believers seated with Christ in the heavenlies. The "us" are those who are blessed in the heavenlies.

    2. What did God choose born again believers TO BE?

    Answer: holy and blameless before Him.

    3. What does it mean to for US the church to be holy and blameless before him?

    Answer: It means to be found without spot or wrinkle on Judgment day. See Eph 5:27 and Col 1:17 for more insight on that one.

    So then so far we have that God chose for US born again believers to be holy and blameless before God on judgment day. Quite plain.

    Now it says "He (God) chose us in him (Christ) before the foundation of the world TO BE.

    1. Who are "in him?"

    Answer: Those who are "in Christ" are only born again believers, once enemies of God and now transferred into the Kingdom of Light and his beloved Son. Very basic Pauline theology.

    2. What is the purpose of born again believers being in him?

    Answer: to be found holy and blameless before God.

    3. What exactly did God choose?

    Before the foundation of the world, God chose a condition: For born again believers, those in Christ, TO BE found holy and blameless before God on judgment day.

    But you were reading this to say that God chose a certain people to become Christians weren't you? Unfortunate.

    Wanna proceed to verse 5 now to discover it does not say you were predestined to become a Christian? Yeah let's do that.

    "In love he predestined to be his sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace which he freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. "

    Now what you need to do here is carefully look at the following verses and find out when born again believers (US) will be adopted as sons in the sense Paul is talking about. I will prove he has this sense in mind later k?

    And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body. (Romans 8:23).

    Yeah in love he predestined that those in Christ would be adopted as sons on that Day. In love = In Christ his Beloved.

    So do as Jesus said and "Remain in Me."

    HE is our assurance.

    So perhaps you can see more clearly now.
     
  12. johnp.

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    Hello Ben.

    The conclusion you aim for. To prove. For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love Not that He chose us in Him but you say that the scripture actually says, "For he chose us to perform a condition, the condition being that we must be found holy and blameless on judgement day otherwise we will not be adopted as sons."
    You get that from, For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love?

    "For he chose us to perform a condition, the condition being that we must be found holy and blameless on Judgement Day otherwise we will not be adopted as sons."

    Is that right?

    johnp.
     
  13. Ben Elohim

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    The conclusion you aim for. To prove. For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love Not that He chose us in Him but you say that the scripture actually says, "For he chose us to perform a condition, the condition being that we must be found holy and blameless on judgement day otherwise we will not be adopted as sons."
    You get that from, For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love?

    "For he chose us to perform a condition, the condition being that we must be found holy and blameless on Judgement Day otherwise we will not be adopted as sons."

    Is that right?

    johnp.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Incorrect.

    Let's take the verse and amplify (1) what you want it to mean and (2) what it really does mean

    The passage does not mean the following as you desire it to mean:

    "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in this way before the foundation of the world, to become holy and blameless Christians before Him now. In love He predestined us the Chosen to become Christians through Jesus Christ to Himself."

    Here are your errors:

    The term "US" refers to people are already born again believers, not people God decided would be believers.

    The term "in him" is never a means (HOW) in Scripture but a positional term (WHERE).

    The term "before him" is clearly a reference to Judgment Day as we can see in Ephesians 5:27 and Colossians 1:22.

    The term in "in love" is a reference to Jesus God's Son the Beloved (WHERE), not a means by which God did something (HOW).

    The things Christians are predestined TO is not a new birth event (Christans are already born again) but the adoption of sons in the redemption of the body in the same vein as Romans 8:23.


    The passage does mean the following:

    "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed born again believers with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as before the foundation of the world God chose born again believers that are in Christ to be holy and blameless before Him on the Last Day. In Christ He predestined born again believers to adoption as sons, the redemption of the body, through Jesus Christ to Himself,

    GOD chose those who are "in Him" TO BE.

    The passage does not say that God chose who would be Christians but that God chose Christians TO BE something - holy and blameless before God.

    You will see, if you want to see, that Paul is here saying that before the foundation of the world, God chose born again believers who are in Christ TO BE holy and blameless before God on judgment day. There is absolutely NOTHING in this verse which indicates God chose who would become Christians as you would like to have it.

    And so to make sure this happens remain IN HIM where you can be found holy and blameless on that Day.

    I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit. You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. Remain in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you remain in me. I am the vine, you are the branches; he who remains in me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. If anyone does not remain in me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.
     
  14. Pastor Larry

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    Where does it say that? Every translation and Greek text I know of says "God chose us." You have changed it for some reason ...
     
  15. Ben Elohim

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    Where does it say that? Every translation and Greek text I know of says "God chose us." You have changed it for some reason ... </font>[/QUOTE]Interesting that you need to truncate the passage to insist upon your assertion PL.

    Where does it say that?

    "He chose us.... TO BE."

    The verb TO BE implies a condition of existence. This is rather plain common sense.

    And so what is the condition of existence that Paul is saying God chose those in Christ TO BE?
     
  16. Pastor Larry

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    I didn't truncate the passate at all. You want to know where it says that, then just read it. The only thing I did was identify the antecedent of "he." It says "He chose us." That is plain and simple.

    Yes it is.

    The passage is quite clear. He chose us to be holy and blameless ... in other words, to be in Christ. Holy and blameless is the state of every believer in salvation and thus, to choose us to be holy and blameless is to choose us to be saved. That is plainly evident from the text.

    You are new here, and seem to be in the habit of denying plain truths of Scripture. That is an unfortunate start for you. Here, we hold the Scriptures highly, and while we differ on matters of interpretation, we do not differ on matters of plain statement. Please adjust your approach to Scriptures to meet the standards of this forum. Those who hold Scriptures in such low regard are confined to posting in the other religions forum.
     
  17. Ben Elohim

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    Yeah you did and still do truncate the passage. The passage says more than "He chose us" doesn't it?

    Plainly evident PL? Let us see what is plainly evident. I believe you may be making these assertions based on what you know is required to satisfy your creedal beliefs rather than a desire to know what Paul really intended. I do hope this is not the case and you do not try to conform the Bible to your creedal beliefs but conform your beliefs to the Bible.

    1. First, it is rather absurd to claim that Paul is saying God chose some people who were Christians to become Christians, since in fact, the US of the passage IS Christians who are already blessed in the heavenlies. How then can you resort to claiming that Paul is saying God chose born again believers to become born again believers? It makes absolutely no sense.

    2. The former point is emphasized further by the fact that the US are those who are "in him."

    3. Paul's terminology in both this letter and elsewhere make it plain what he means:

    "Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her, so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless." (Ephesians 5:25-27).

    He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard. (Colossians 1:22-23).

    4. Even IF we accepted your premise here for the sake of argument, it does not change one simple fact my friend. In such a case, all you would have is Paul saying that God chose something TO BE, that those who are in Christ would BE holy and blameless before him and God chose this reality before the foundation of the world.

    Well, PL, I am new here but I am very old at this. I can see when others say things like this for the sole purpose of demonizing other people with an eye to hoping no one will engage in the substance of the argument. Else, why bother doing it?

    You seem to be of the opinion that PL is the only one who knows "the plain truths of Scripture" and that anyone who should reject your interpretation is a heretic. Well the problem there is that I, or anyone else, could say such things to you too couldn't I? It solves nothing and this is why I do not bother with it. Ad hominems, the demonizing of someone's character, is the same old fallacy the Jews used to deal with Jesus when they did not wish to any longer deal with the force of his reasoning. I do hope that your desire is not to do as they did and I know God has better blessings in mind for you.

    As you will see, I hold the Scriptures very highly and I can defend the truth well and your assertions to the contrary will not change the power of truth.

    And as it is, you cannot find anything wrong with my interpretation of Ephesians 1:4-5. You have only so far made assertions that you do not agree with it without any argumentation to support your insistences.
     
  18. johnp.

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    Ben.

    "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in this way before the foundation of the world, to become holy and blameless Christians before Him now. In love He predestined us the Chosen to become Christians through Jesus Christ to Himself."

    That you say does not mean that?
    The term "US" refers to people are already born again believers, not people God decided would be believers.
    Paul is teaching the Church. Teaching is only for believers. The 'us' is us, the sheep. They are the ones He speaks to and of. This Paul was teaching the Ephesians that we all, those chosen, were chosen not recently, but before the creation of the world. He is attempting to edify the Church of God and does a great job at it. This is the wonder of the wonders. I was never hated but always loved are you jealous of that?
    Have we? :cool: You have me have not. :cool: Where in the text do you find Judgement Day?
    It is in His Sight that I am holy and blameless now because He chose me before the creation of the world for that. Which means that on that day I shall be the same as I am now, redeemed, because it is God who works in me to will and to act according to His good purpose. Php 2:13. So you can't blame me!HaHa. And nor can He!
    You can only blame yourself you should not tempt me! TO BE? Or not to BE? That is the question! :cool:
    Yes it does. It says; For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love
    That He chose us to be something I will not argue with. It is far nicer than being chosen to be nothing but a display of God's wrath forever. That is pretty appalling. But that is not my destiny nor is it my problem because He chose me in Him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in His sight. In love everlasting. True love.
    What are you offering me that I should want to trade that?
    The Day does not bother me. The Day can come as fast as it likes so we can get on with really living. I am holy, spotless, blameless and without wrinkle, of the spiritual kind that is, and that is in His sight now and forever more. I'm forgiven now and forever more.

    johnp.
     
  19. Ben Elohim

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    Have you noticed johnp that you have not done anything to demonstrate why my interpretation might be wrong but have merely retreated to a Calvinist chant?
     
  20. johnp.

    johnp.
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    Ben.

    Retreat! HaHa. :cool: For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love
    The Calvinist chant is scripture alone where's your answers?

    johnp.
     

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