Erwin McManus; The Unstoppable Force I & II

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Berean, Jun 3, 2009.

  1. Berean

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    I learned tonight that my church is presenting a series of Video presentations by Erwin McManus as a part of its Sunday night Bible Studies. Upon seeing the name I recalled seeing it in relation to the Emergant Church Movement. This in itself was evidence enough for me to have suspicion or doubts about this series but upon further research (via internet) I could not find what I thought would be convincing proof to my brethern (SBC). Is the anyone who has knowledge of any of our own, such as Dr Mohler or any other of our recognizabe leaders to speak out about this. I did see that he is the leader of a group referred to as a Mosiac in Southern Calif.
     
  2. preachinjesus

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    Erwin McManus is an outstanding pastor, annointed communicator, gifted writer, and a world class leader. He is not a participant in any emerging/ent church conversations.

    Erwin is a profoundly Scriptural preacher who speaks to people who are removed from a traditional evangelical Christianity. Erwin understands to reach people who are, culturally, two or three steps removed from traditional evnagelical Christianity that we must change our language but remain lashed to the Cross.

    I've listened to Erwin and read his stuff and deeply appreciate his perspective and sacrificial ministry. I don't think he is a god or bow reverently to him. I just respect him greatly.

    I think the categorization of being part of the "Emergant (sic) Church Movement" is myopic and one which doesn't understand who or what is emerging/ent. :)
     
  3. Revmitchell

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    Whether or not Mcmanus is part of the Emerging/ent movement is debatable and most like true. He is listed on sites like Wikipedia and Theopedia as being in the Emerging/ent movement. I would argue that he is on the Emergent side of things which is the more extreme side holding to complete heresies. He is also listed on the emergent.tv web site. He certainly was originally part of the leadership network.

    But here is the thing: Such churches assert that the gospel is hid from people because the church will not take up worldly and secular cultures to express the gospel. They also believe that strong propositional truth is mean spirited and often use accusations of being phariseeical to those who hold to dogmatic doctrine.

    I would go to you tube and watch some of his clips. I would google his name and add to it what ever subject you want to see his position on. Having watched a couple of his clips on Jesus and hell he was very solid. But understand there is much controversy around him for a reason. He is into the heretical contemplative spirituality based on eastern mysticism and the false social gospel based on utilitarian endeavors. Just a little bit if research will pull all this up.

    One of his more troubling quotes :

    “Somehow Christianity has become a nonmystical religion. It’s about a reasonable faith. If we believe the right things, then we are orthodox. Frankly whether we ever actually connect to God or experience His undeniable presence has become incidental, if not irrelevant. We have become believers rather than experiencers. To know God in Scriptures always went beyond information to intimacy. We may find ourselves uncomfortable with this reality, but the faith of the Scriptures is a mystical faith. It leads us beyond the material world into an invisible reality. We become connected to the God of eternity. Who you are at the core is spirit. God is Spirit. To walk with God is to journey in the spiritual realm. ”

    Erwin McManus “The Barbarian Way”


    This view hold personal experience above scripture. It is clearly contrary to scripture as is indicated in Romans 10:17. We become connected to God the moment he indwells us at the point of regeneration.

    Another one:

    ""I"m often accused of being irreligious, and I suppose it's for this very reason. Whether it's Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Catholicism, Hinduism, Judaism, or any other ism, when a religioin is created on the subtle premise that God withholds his love and you must submit to the system to earn that love, I consider it the worst of corruptions...
    For centuries, the church has been telling us that if we want God to love us, we need to follow the rules. It's been far more important to focus on the sin problem than the love problem.""
    — Erwin McManus


    This is a sophomoric attempt to characterize the church and is at best untrue. What Erwin ignores is that until we understand the sin problem the love of God cannot be truly understood. Until we understand who we are in relation to a Holy and righteous God we cannot understand the true depth of the love of God. These people want to skip over sin completely
     
    #3 Revmitchell, Jun 4, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 4, 2009
  4. Marcia

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    McManus thinks Christians should not view being a Christian as a walk in the park, and I agree. However, many think he goes too far the other way, trying to equate Christianity with something wild and untamed in The Barbarian Way. This cannot be supported biblically at all. This review makes some good points; below is an excerpt.

    http://www.crossroad.to/articles2/006/barbarian-way-reeves.htm
     
  5. Freedom

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    Do you suppose anyone called John the Baptist "wild and untamed?" Peter was a hothead and easily flew off the handle. The sons of Zebedee were known as the Sons of Thunder.
     
  6. Revmitchell

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    Trying to equate Christianity to being radical or untamed is sophomoric at best and irreverent at worst. What is wild and untamed and radical is the enmity against God the lost and dying world has. And this is because the true standard is not the world or culture but God. The deviation falls on the shoulders of the world not on God or Christianity. And quite frankly it is ungodly to suggest otherwise.
     
    #6 Revmitchell, Jun 4, 2009
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  7. Thinkingstuff

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    I don't know this Erwin McManus but I was reviewing your quote and statement regarding it. And I think Just from the passage sited that you've misrepresented what he saying. He is not saying that he holds personal experience above scripture but not to stop at knowledge and move beyond to experience. In other words take the next step and apply and understand God in a deeper way. Whats wrong with that?
     
  8. Revmitchell

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    That is not what he said at all. He did not mention taking a next step. Neither did he mention anything about biblical application. He did not even come close to saying anything close to that. And if that is his intent, of which there is not evidence for, then he is of the poorest of communicators.
     
  9. Marcia

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    They may have called him that but that is not what he was. He lived outside of society but he was a prophet called by God, not the regular guy. And I don't think of him as wild or untamed.

    Peter was a hothead but that was not a good thing. What does that prove? That it's okay to be a hothead just because Peter was? That goes directly against teachings in the NT to be peaceful and to control our anger.

    Being known as the Sons of Thunder was probably not a compliment but even it was, doesn't mean it was okay.

    You seem to be making the mistake that if something is in the Bible it's okay. Adultery, killing, lying, etc. are done by people throughout the Bible. So your examples are meaningless. Just because these people were this way does not mean that is what God calls us to!

    I think some people may be equating being bold with being untamed. They need a dictionary.

    Does God call us to be wild and untamed? No!

    Part of the fruit of the Holy Spirit is self-control, and self-control is mentioned as a sought after goal in at least 2 other places in the NT.

    Additionally, we are told in several places to be sober minded.
     
    #9 Marcia, Jun 4, 2009
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  10. Marcia

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    I disagree with 2 things in the quote - that the Bible calls us to mystical connections with God (mysticism is always done through experience and discounts objective truth and doctrine as secondary or even irrelevant), and that "who you are at the core is spirit." That is Gnostic, not Christian. Who we are is body/mind/spirit - a unity as God created us.
     
  11. Thinkingstuff

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    I find this part of the passage to be the pivotal point
    So go beyond just "information" and get to "intimacy". Which he equates as a mystical faith
    Now like I said. I haven't read anything by this man but just reading the passage you quote I understand it differently.
     
  12. Marcia

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    This is from McManus' website. I find this rather disturbing:

    http://erwinmcmanus.com/bio/

    (Emphasis added)

    I can tell you that had I read that as a New Ager, I would have assumed he was on the same page as I was.
     
  13. Thinkingstuff

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    Yeah, I see what you mean. Does he mean to make us more in God's likeness or that we are already divine in some respect? Its a hazy statement. A new ager would go with the later and take out their quartz wondering when their spirit guide will show.
     
  14. Revmitchell

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    That is not what he said even in your quote. But you need to consider the quote as a whole not just what makes you comfortable with it. Try again.
     
  15. Thinkingstuff

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    You're funny. it was your quote I was working from here:
    In other words its exactly what he's saying. Common Rev Try again.
     
  16. Revmitchell

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    You took a snipet of the quote and used it to interpret the whole. That was your error.


    There is no legitimate reason to place Christianity in a "mystical" context. Such excersizes are in complete error.

    Belief always leads to action. Just because someone says they believe is not reliable.

    It can be irrelevant. Because we are tainted by sin and fallible. We cannot allow feelings or experience to be the standard for a relationship with God. For instance we are to love others even when we do not feel like it. And sometimes we just don't.

    What part of the gospel says to become experiencers? Belief is what leads to salvation not experience. This hyper focus on experience as he has just mentioned it places experience over scripture.


    Belief is more than just information. This statement shows his immaturity in the faith or an agenda that denies the truth in order to propose his agenda.

    Again there is no legitimate reason to place Christianity in the context of mysticism. It is as immature as placing Christ in the context of radical. It is time to grow up.

    This is a false gospel. We in fact become connected to the God of reality when we are indwelt with the Holy Ghost. And it is walking in the spirit whether we "feel"like it or not.

    This is errant theology. To walk with God is to walk in the Spirit. He has to place Christianity in unscriptural contexts,and work to mischaracterize the relationsip of believers with God up to this point in order to further his ungodly agenda.
     
  17. Marcia

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    I don't know how he means it because he doesn't clarify it - at least not on this page. I don't think ambiguity here serves any good purpose, but the emergents major in ambiguity. They don't like to make statements of objective truth (which they call propositional statements) and they don't like to sound Christian.

    There is nothing on this page, except the very last paragraph saying he went to SWBTS, that would make you think he is a Christian. This tactic may draw unbelievers but then they likely feel deceived when they found out he is a Christian.

    Many emergents sound New Agey - like Leonard Sweet, who has the book Quantum Spirituality, and who talks about Christ consciousness, a distinctly New Age term that originated in New Thought.
     
  18. gb93433

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    God is not about what is or is not reasonable or logical to man. His ways are not our ways. Think about what is talked about at so many church growth conferences. When did you ever hear as the main focus on prayer. I cannot think of one time that God ever blessed "my methodology" but he always blesses what the Holy Spirit does and what we are commanded to do with the Holy Spirit's leading.
    Again I agree with this quote. Think about how many churches are on "the path to success" using CCM, PDL, PDC, and Willow Creek methodologies as a way to success. What ever happened to a church with Bible in hand and prayer?

    I agree.

    I disagree with him in that should we not see both?
    Don't you think that is what happened to Paul when he understood his own righteousness compared to God.

    That may be true but that is not what I get from the quotes.
     

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