Eschatology...

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by RLBosley, Sep 28, 2012.

  1. RLBosley

    RLBosley
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    I posted a while back that I had been raised in dispensationalism and not until recently even knew there was any kind of opposing view. Well I've been doing some research and I have to say that I am fairly confident that I'm abandoning the dispensational system (though I was never a classic or hyper-dispy). After looking at scripture objectively, without Tim Lahaye ringing in my ears when I read Dan 9, 1 Thess 4 etc... I am pretty sure I'm bailing on the pre-trib rapture and the literal 7 year Great trib. :thumbsup:

    Now... I'm leaning towards a post-trib, historic pre-mill view, but I've seen some good arguements from the post-/A-mill side of things. Anyone have any good resources (Books, websites etc) regarding these views. They seem to be VERY hard to find.
    Thanks all!

    :godisgood:
     
  2. Gregory Perry Sr.

    Gregory Perry Sr.
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    Fasten your seatbelt Brother!

    Brother....you better fasten your proverbial seatbelt because this is one of those subjects that has been contentiously discussed to death here on this board in the past. If the usual participants rise to the occasion then you have opened a real can of worms!:laugh:

    Now...that said....Have you ever read J.Dwight Pentecost's excellent work on Eschatology..."Things To Come"? I highly recommend it and hope you will obtain and read it before you completely abandon your dispensational,pre-trib roots. It is balanced and thorough in it's treatment of end-times teaching. I can understand your disallusions if all you have built your beliefs on is the teachings of Tim LaHaye. The LaHaye/Jenkins "Left Behind" series and the spin-offs of it have definitely sullied the tastes and opinions of many but I don't want to throw him completely "under the bus". He is not wrong about everything but like many in our day he has tended to opt for the "sensational" and the use of fiction which is not always either factual OR even more importantly,scriptural. I would caution you that if you move away from the Pre-trib position toward the amill or post-mil,post-trib position you are moving into a non-literalist stance which is built more on "spiritualizing" scriptures that are more soundly interpreted in the literal sense. (In my opinion) In doing so it makes you interprete scripture OUTSIDE of the accepted and sound principles of scripture interpretation. Pray for discernment brother and ask God to give you His Truth for His Sake! Be careful and don't be hasty to depart from your roots.

    For the record, I am a dispensationalist but NOT a Hyper one. I believe in the pre-trib rapture of the church but I do believe we (the church)will likely suffer some increasing persecutions and troubles BEFORE the rapture (we are beginning to see that more and more here in the US today).I do believe there will be a clearly defined 7 years of tribulation after the rapture at which time the anti-Christ will be revealed. The world at large will accept him as the world leader with all the answers and He will make peace with Israel that he will violate after the 1st 3 & 1/2 years. At the end of the 7 years Christ will return with his bride (AMEN), will fight and win the battle of Armageddon and then establish a clearly defined 1000 year millenial reign from Jerusalem on a restored earth. At the end of that there will be a final rebellion when Satan is loosed for a short season after which the Great White Throne Judgement will occur. Satan and all his "children",all the then resurrected lost of all time will be cast into the lake of fire for all eternity. After which all of this heaven and this earth will pass away in a fervent heat. There will then be a new heaven and a new earth and an eternity for us in the presence of God.....Hallelujah! All this will occur by God's timing and according to His will. Amen.:thumbs: That pretty much sums up what I believe. It's not a matter that I debate any longer. I have a settled peace about all I just stated. I have seen and accepted the scriptures that I believe teach these things so I'm not going to be redundant and post them all here. They should, for the most part, be taken literally and in the futuristic viewpoint. I don't believe we should EVER force our interpretations upon scripture. I don't believe that what I have stated above does that. I didn't mean to write this much...but there it is. Have a good weekend.

    Bro.Greg
     
  3. OldRegular

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    The Meaning of the Millennium; Four Views edited by Robert G. Clouse.

    Revelation: Three Viewpoints by Beasley-Murray, Hobbs, Robbins.

    [/i]Revelation: Four Views [/i] edited by Steve Gregg.


    Amillennial View

    The Bible and the Future by Anthony Hoekema.

    The Book of Revelation by Philip Edgcumbe Hughes.

    Behold He Cometh by Herman Hoeksema.

    More Than Conquerors by William Hendriksen.


    Historic Pre-millennial View

    The Lion and the Lamb by John Newport.
     
  4. plain_n_simple

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    It is very very simple. You get by yourself and worship and praise and thank Jesus. Then ask Him to reveal things to you, it will happen for those who truly seek.
     
  5. thomas15

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    I have said this many times but I seem to never get tired of repeating it. The real debate, the issue at the core is not pre-trib vs. post trib or pre-mil vs. a-mil, rather the issue is covenant vs. dispensational theology.

    Figure out if you take the Bible 1. seriously or 2. very seriously. Then figure out if covenant theology fits your view of the Bible.
     
  6. webdog

    webdog
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    Based on the things happening in the world it amazes me how anyone could abandon a dispensational, pre mil / pre trib position at this time.
     
  7. MorseOp

    MorseOp
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    Two good books from opposing sides to dispensationalism:

    "A Case for Amillennialism" by Kim Riddelbargers

    "Postmillennialism: An Eschatology of Hope" by Keith Mathison

    I made the move from dispensationalism to covenant theology about ten years ago. It was a long, arduous journey for me. I currently hold to the amillennial view, but I do so with a very weak grip.
     
  8. MorseOp

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    Truth be told that type of argument has been used ever since Darby's brand of dispensationalism hit the Christian scene. I know a senior saint who became a pastor during World War II. He told me that Christians were sure that Hitler was the anti-Christ and the rapture would soon happen. That dear brother is still waiting. My point being that we can't anticipate prophecy through current events.
     
  9. Greektim

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    bwahahahaha!!!
     
  10. webdog

    webdog
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    I attribute that more to wishful thinking than objectionable reason. The things occurring with Russia, Iran and the middle east are not coincidental. There were no "final lines" being discussed by israel....there wasn't even an Israel. That alone is prophetic.
     
  11. Greektim

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    I'm glad to hear this... not b/c you are leaning more towards what I believe, but I love to hear it when people leave their indoctrination and start thinking for themselves.

    I would recommend a new book that is somewhat controversial and written by the SBTS guys, Kingdom through Covenant. Any good theology must have a good biblical theological approach that examines diachronically the story of Scripture. So I would start w/ something like the Drama of Scripture. Answering questions on eschatology are best done from this approach of explaining the story of Scripture. I'd also recommend The Mission of God. These things will get you immersed in the way the Bible develops in a cohesive way and within the bounds of continuity.

    Lastly, though some can't stand him, his work on the mission of Jesus and theology of the gospel accounts are second to none. So I recommend N. T. Wright's stuff like How God Became King or his much more in depth approach Jesus and the Victory of God. I would say Jesus is the key that connects the OT and NT together. Since the OT and its covenants finds their fulfillment in him, he is the integral part.

    One more... Beale's New Testament Biblical Theology is not an eschatological book, but he argues that eschatology is a major theme in the NT (so does Wright). Just know that eschatology starts at the resurrection of Jesus. So it is not the newspaper exegesis endtimes eschatology but a diachronic development of eschatology as seen developed in the NT (not society!!!).
     
    #11 Greektim, Sep 28, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 28, 2012
  12. webdog

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    There's a profitable post :rolleyes:
     
  13. Iconoclast

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    Take your time.....it is good to study each of the positions in that all the godly men who have written on our Lord's return learned to serve him and to pursue holiness in this life...I am in between...post/amill.....now, historic premill like Ladd or Spurgeon would be fine....you have been given many good book recommendations so far;

    Dispensationalism is wrong and should be rejected when you examine any of the other views...you will soon see why.

    You will find more here on these links:
    http://www.monergism.com/directory/link_category/Dispensationalism/

    scroll down....there are many articles;
    http://gospelpedlar.com/articles/Last Things/Postmill_Boettner/contents.html


    http://www.preteristarchive.com/


    http://www.puritanlibrary.com/...this site is full of good resources
     
  14. OldRegular

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    And who can forget the millennium craze that swept the country 12 years ago.
     
  15. preachinjesus

    preachinjesus
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    I would second a couple of others who point out that the hope in your post is found in the reality that you are looking into these things for yourself and asking questions of the established beliefs that you had been given. Kudos! :)

    FWIW, I grew up in a generous classical dispensational church (that wasn't on the sign) that taught pre-trib/pre-mil eschatology as a major component of one's faith. I'm not sad that I grew up in this church, it was a very good church and very biblical church. However, as I grew in my personal journey I began looking at the theology which led to and came from this viewpoint. Even as I got to seminary, I arrived fully convinced of these positions, I quickly was challenged (in a good way) by my professors to think deeper and look harder at these beliefs. They asked to good questions and pushed me to develop my own point of view.

    As a result I am a progressive dispensationalist who supports a historical premillennial eschatology. I appreciate my brothers and sisters who still uphold other views. However, I have also noted that my eschatology went from driving a lot of my theological decisions to being the result of a lot of theological decisions. That is, at least for me, an important part of my personal prolegomena (method.)

    There have been a number of resources that I would encourage you to check out that have already been listed. One of the things that might benefit is working through a good systematic theology that helps keep things in perspective and provides a complete understanding of where things fit. To that end, Millard Erickson's Christian Theology is perhaps best suited to meet your needs. Also, I would encourage you to check out the Counterpoints series from Zondervan (I think) on this topic callled Four Views on the Millennium. It provides balanced arguments from scholars in the field as well as informed critiqes. Finally, I would do an indepth study on Revelation. This was the thing that really reinforced my need to change positions. Revelation is a difficult book and often misinterpreted. I am no longer convinced that a solely futurist interpretation is permitted in the text. Two good commentaries that will help are GK Beale's NIGTC and Aune's commentary for the Word Biblical.

    I hope you're encouraged in your journey and continue to grow. Even if you return to your former position you will benefit from this kind of quest. Feel free to post questions like this on the board, there are plenty of reasonable voices on this board. (And it would be nice to have something other than a Reformed vs. not thread.) :)
     
  16. preachinjesus

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    This is a highly pejorative point. Perhaps this is my research in historical theology coming through...but it is a point rehashed frequently across the history of Christendom to support any number of eschatological conclusions.

    We are in the midst of a golden age of human history. Though there are some things going on which are concerning and certainly sound like images which signal "end times" but aren't those statements so general they could mean almost anything?

    I'm not dispensational pre-trib/pre-mil because the biblical text doesn't, imho, support this conclusion. You simply cannot force texts into a contemporary fulfillment.
     
  17. Darrell C

    Darrell C
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    Hello RLBosley, the one resource I would suggest is scripture.

    You mention Tim LaHaye in a context of indoctrination, so I ask you, why would you want to now seek to be indoctrinated by the views of other men?

    I would be very glad to look at your concerns about a pre-trib rapture, as well as the passages that have made you question them and perhaps gained interest concerning the post-trib view.

    I will say that there are men I respect and even admire that hold to both views, and believe that there is good reason for both positions, though I myself, the more I debate post-trib, become more convinced of the pre-trib view.

    It is one of my favorite topics, and one we would all do well to be clear in our hearts where we stand, and believe that it contributes not just to our eschatological views, but affects our soteriological views as well.

    So I would caution you that as you look at the positions held by others, leave your conclusions to the moving of God in our heart. It is easy to become convinced as to what others believe, so be careful.

    God bless.
     
  18. Grasshopper

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    Heard the same thing 30 years ago. I finally learned Truth comes from the Bible not the daily newspaper.
     
  19. Greektim

    Greektim
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    Which is why I laughed at his post... you made it even funnier!!!
     
  20. OldRegular

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    John P. Newport in his book The Lion and the Lamb describes in the Preface his journey from dispensational eschatology to historic pre-millennial eschatology. He indicates that George E. Ladd also moved from dispensationalism to historic pre-millennialism. I had not read that elsewhere.

    I note that you indicate a movement from eschatology driving your theology to the reverse. I may be wrong to say this but I believe that the move toward progressive dispensationalism will be beneficial to the Church or churches.
     

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