Eternal Salvation?

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by fwbbcflames, Jul 5, 2001.

  1. fwbbcflames

    fwbbcflames
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    So what do you think about eternal salvation. Can one fall from grace? I say yes. In Hebrews 6:4-6 the Bible is clear in the teaching of apostasy. Verse 6 states, IF THEY SHALL FALL AWAY. How does one fall away you may ask? God does not take salvation away because of one sin. That is not taught here at all. One can forfit their salvation by giving it back to God. This is not a hypothetical situation in the bible. I know this is the way most want to explain this passage away. So who decides what part of the bible I am suppose to make into a hypothetical case in order to make it fit what I want it to say. Just a question.
     
  2. Don

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    The first question you have to ask yourself is: Is God a liar?

    If the answer is no, then you have to examine John 10:27-28 -- My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

    If God is not a liar, then when He gives us eternal life, and says we shall never perish, and no man--including ourselves--shall pluck us out of His hand, well, I have to say that eternal salvation/security is a done deal.

    I think where most of us get confused--myself included--on eternal security is the "those that fall away" idea. If you look at Hebrews 10, the last two verses, you also see "we are not of those that fall into perdition, but those that believe to the saving of the soul." To me, this was a concept I couldn't figure out--until I remembered and studied the parable of the sowing of the seeds (Matthew 18, Mark 4, Luke 8)

    You see, those that "fall away" are like the seed that fell amongst the thorns: They believe for a little while, until trials and tribulations come, and then they turn their back on salvation. In other words, they never had it in the first place. Even the devils believe (James 2); that doesn't mean the seed is going to take root and they'll get saved.

    When someone "falls away," they are of those that grew among the thorns, and never actually took root. We, however, are of those that got firmly grounded, and produced 100-fold; we are those that believe to the saving of the soul.

    Hope I didn't muddy that up for you.
     
  3. Briguy

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    Don, That was a great answer. The example I use to go along with what you said is that when we get saved we don't grab on to God but he grabs hold of us. If we were holding on to God we would surely fail and let go but the fact is he is holding us and he will never let go even though we will fail him at times. "What a might God we serve"
     
  4. word_digger

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Hebrews 6:4-6 the Bible is clear in the teaching of apostasy. Verse 6 states, IF THEY SHALL FALL AWAY. How does one fall away you may ask? God does not take salvation away because of one sin. That is not taught here at all. One can forfit their salvation by giving it back to God. This is not a hypothetical situation in the bible. I know this is the way most want to explain this passage away. So who decides what part of the bible I am suppose to make into a hypothetical case in order to make it fit what I want it to say. Just a question. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    I'll probably get jumped for this, but have you considered that since the book is written to the HEBREWS that it might apply to Jewish tribulation saints, here AFTER the Church, the Lord's body has been called out. Dispensational? Of course.

    Also, I can't imagine anyone, after receiving the free gift of Salvation, giving it back.

    Ok, that's my two cents worth.
     
  5. Pastor Larry

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    As a dispensationalist, let me just clarify that not all of us believe what word_digger has just said. I believe Heb 6 talks of a hypothetical situation. A person who is truly saved will not, even cannot, fall away. If someone falls away they were not truly regenerated.

    [ July 05, 2001: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]
     
  6. Man of Sword

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    Word Digger,

    Great Job, sir! That's exactly how you deal with the "trouble verses" of Hebrews. Not many people see it that way (unfortunately).

    Rightly divide the word of truth

    It also brings up another good point...found in another Jewish epistle...1 John.

    Let me ask a question (to anyone): A true born again believer, are all of his sins forgiven? I mean all. Are all of his sins, past, present and future forgiven? The answer would obviously be "yes"...it is forgiven based upon the blood of Jesus Christ.

    1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

    Two things here: It says "if" we confess our sins...does that mean "if" we don't, we are not forgiven? and secondly...he will "cleanse us from all unrighteousness"...what about that? I have the righteousness of God right now, as far as the Lord is concerned. I know this will probably throw many for a loop...but like word digger said...it is a Jewish epistle for tribulation saints after the church has been taken out.

    This DOES NOT mean that the Jewish epistles are not for the church...obviously they are. However, you have to know how to handle them. Certain verses have strict doctrinal applications to the tribulation, others are applied both during the church, and afterward as well.

    Well, again good job word digger...its great to meet someone who "rightly divides the word of truth".

    Now...let the bombing begin.
     
  7. Psalm145 3

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    People who claim to be Christians and believe they can be saved one day and lost the next do not understand the first point of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. They cannot be genuine Bible believing Christians.

    John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    They say, "oh no, you can't have everlasting life, you might lose your salvation."

    If you have everlasting life that God has given you in John 3:16 you cannot lose your salvation. If you don't have everlasting life you haven't believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, you're lost. If a person says they can lose their salvation, their eternal life, I believe they're as lost as lost can be, they're on their way to hell and don't even know it.

    If you believe you can be saved today and lost tomorrow, why, you may die on the day you're lost. You'll be fearful all your life. God doesn't want you to be afraid all your life wondering if you're going to be saved or not.

    Romans 8:38,39 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
     
  8. Chet

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    I would have to disagree with the ultra- dispensational teaching that the Hebrews Epistle, James, Peter's and John's epistle are only for the Jewish people after the Tribulation. I am a dispensationalist and I do feel its rare to find people who follow 2Tim 2:15, who study and to rightly divide.

    1John 1:9 is usually misunderstood I do agree with that. I also believe that we are given perfect righteousness by Christ when we are saved. We are saved and forgiven for all sins by the blood of Christ, not by our action of confession. John is contrasting between lost and saved in this chapter. Vs 6 IF you walk in darkness then your lost. Vs 7 IF you walk in light your saved. Vs 8 IF you say you have no sin your lost. VS 9 IF you confess your sins your saved. VS 10 IF you say we have not sinned your lost. Vs 2:3 IF you keep his commandments (love) then your saved.
    These are facts, not conditions. I believe 1John 1:9 is a one time event.

    Hebrews is written to the Hebrew children. But it is written to the saved Hebrew children. They are part of the body of Christ. They were confused on a lot of issue's and greatly being persecuted by the Jews who were not Christian. Hebrews 5 and 6 is an admonishment to keep learning and pursuing forward while not worrying about that persecution. Some perhaps did want to "go back" to the rudiments of Judaism because of the great persecution, but the writer tells them they can't. Its impossible, and if it were possible that this chapter teaches that you can lose your Salvation then its also clear that you are not getting it back, because Jesus died once for sins, He is not coming back to die again. Read vs 9 as it is a great verse that confirms they are not going to lose their great salvation.

    Anyone who believes that you can lose your salvation truly have never really understood the doctrine of Salvation. Salvation is a gift from God. We can't earn it. If we could lose our salvation then we would be working for it on a daily bases then its simply not salvation. We would not really be saved until we were in heaven. I am saved right now. There are thirty-five plus things that happen to a believer when they are saved. Here is a list of some of them:
    <UL TYPE=SQUARE>1. Redemption.
    2. Reconciliation
    3. Forgivness
    4. Propitiation (satisfaction)
    5. Regeneration
    6. Justification
    7. Made Righteous (imputed)
    8. Made Perfect
    9. Sanctification
    10. Made Holy (similar to sanctification, but different depending on the Greek word.)
    11. Accepted
    12. Partakers
    13. Made Near
    14. Citizens
    15. Adoption
    16. Are a new creation
    17. Members of the Family of God
    18. Delivered and Translated
    19. Possesses EVERY Spiritual Blessing
    20. Indwelt
    21. Sealed
    22. Secured
    23. Given Full access to the Throne!
    24. Baptism by the Spirit (one time event at time of Salvation, can't feel it)
    25. Placed IN Christ
    26. Made like Jesus.
    27. Name written in lambs book of life.
    28. Have overcome.
    29. No longer called Sinners but Saints[/list]

    Now does God start with number one then number two and so on and give us all those back? Salvation is much more than just a ticket to heaven that we could cash in when we want to.

    I am glad He has bought me with His precious blood, and I am His. I am glad He won't try to get His payment back. That His promise.

    God Bless In Love,

    Chet
     
  9. Don

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    We may wish to take dispensationalism to another thread--say, Theology.

    Because, you see, I once took a look at dispensationalism, namely from a guy named Bob Enyart (out of the Denver area).

    Unfortunately, Bob was wrong on lot of points.

    I'm not the smartest cookie on the plate. In fact, as people have seen me write on this board more than once, I like to remind myself at least once a day that I'm not nearly as smart as I'd like to think I am. However, there's one major problem with the kind of dispensationalism that says "this was written for the Jews and that was written for the Gentiles."

    That problem being, MUCH (if not all) of what was written to the Gentiles...is the exact same thing that was written to the Jews. If that's true, and I believe it is, then dispensationalism--as I understand it from the Enyart point of view--is inconsequential.

    If there's a disagreement with that statement, please feel free to start a new thread and let me know where.

    Now, in answer to fwbbcflames question, I don't think dispensationalism even has to enter into it. The question really is: Can we lose our salvation?

    The answer is no, whether you're a dispensationalist or not.
     
  10. fwbbcflames

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    I still have a problem with the doctrine. I have looked at all of the responses before. I just have one problem with that. In 2 Peter 2:20-22. I know the context of the book and the chapter, who was being wrote too. How does that apply to the Church? It is very plain that once being saved a person can fall back into the sin. Tell me what you think!
     
  11. Pastor KevinR

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    Flames, who says that that Scripture is speaking to Christians? (2 Peter 2:20-22). The argument could be made that this is speaking to those who make an outward profession, but inwardly they are the same. Remember, the Scripture never refers to true believers as dogs or sow. Proverbs 26:11 states, "As a dog returns to his own vomit,so a fool repeats his folly." (NKJV) i.e. They aren't saved to begin with! Remember too the parable about the good seed?
    Matthew 13:3-9,18-23. Jeremiah 13:23 may apply as well. As far as the Heb 6 passage is concerned, I agree totally with Pastor Larry that this is hypothetical.
     
  12. MagicDar

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    I believe in eternal security. Think on this, The bible says that when we become born again that we are children of God..correct? Well the bible also says that God disciplines his children when they do wrong or fall away. If we loose our salvation when we backslide or sin then who is God going to have to discipline? We would no longer be his children. Plus...there is a verse, and for some reason I can't seem to remember where it is found so if any of you know please tell me, but it says All the Father has given we shall not loose. Didn't the Father give us salvation? -Dar
     
  13. Chris Temple

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    John 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.
    :D
     
  14. Psalm145 3

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    Dar, I believe the verses you may be referring to are:

    John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

    John 18:9 That the saying might be fulfilled, which he spake, Of them which thou gavest me have I lost none.
     
  15. John Wells

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    Maybe a look at God's grace will help clear up your conscience. The Bible teaches that we are saved by grace through faith. What is "grace?" Grace is a gift offered freely without stipulations for keeping that gift.

    Could you imagine giving a child a present, and then a week later when the child is bad, you take it away? Some fathers might do that, but a good one would not. If a good father would not do that, then our Father in heaven who is infinately "more good" would not take away His gift of salvation to us either.

    The Lamb's Book of Life contains all the saved people for all eternity. It existed in its complete form before the creation. Believe me, when the final heaven and earth are created there will be no "whiteouts" in the Lamb's Book of Life :D ! God does not make mistakes . . . remember, He is perfect.

    You say, "what about the apostate pastor, deacon, or presumably devoted Christian who falls into habitual sin? We must trust that although they had everyone, including themselves fooled, they never fooled God, and never were saved :eek: ! They may have given their head to God, but they never quite surrendered their heart! The Bible says only God knows the heart of man. "For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things." (1 John 3:20 KJV)

    And the verse that sums this all up: "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--not by works, so that no one can boast. (Eph 2:8-9 NIV)

    What is the result of God's grace? We "have been saved!" Praise God!
     
  16. Man of Sword

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    There's a lot to be said here gentlemen, more than can be said in a post.

    For the gentleman who learned "dispensationalism" from the man in Denver...sorry. Its unfortunate that he led you astray.

    However, you must do what the Lord commanded in 2 Tim 2:15 "Study to shew thyself approved unto God...rightly dividing the word of truth". We are commanded to rightly divide. Most think that rightly dividing is OT vs. NT...which most of the time, when you have someone explain the differences between OT and NT...it sounds exactly the same...except what side of the cross you fall on.

    I know it may sound "dangerous" to say that certain scripture verses apply to Jews, and other scripture verses the Church, and still others the tribulation saints...but gentlemen, it does. I'm sorry if you don't see it that way...but you need to be shown that.

    There are clearly, clearly Bible verses that state controversial issues, such as:
    (and please understand right off of the bat, that I do not believe any of the following apply to anyone living right now...during the Church age...who are born again believers!)

    Salvation can be lost
    We are justified by works, not by faith only
    Water baptism is essential
    You must endure to the end to be saved

    and so on...

    This post will be land-blasted to death...I know...I've been teaching the Bible for years, and never once has "rightly dividing" been accepted quickly.

    But once it was looked at, prayed over, AND STUDIED(!), those same folks say that they have never been taught the Bible like that...and that it answers so many questions that they have had so long.

    Don't take my word for it...ask the Lord.

    For doctrinal issues though, when you "rightly divide the word of truth", you have an answer for basically every doctrinal question.

    When you don't rightly divide, you end up "spiritualizing" the verse, or saying that it doesn't mean what it plainly says in English...or the most classic, is when the "go Greek" on you.

    When all else fails...go Greek.

    Remember, its God who gives you understanding of His word...not "enticing words of man's wisdom". You can know anything about the Lord that the educated guys do.

    Your brother in Christ,
    David
     
  17. 1 st Lady

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    Flames, I do believe that one can fall from Grace. I believe that God has eternal security but I believe we can and I have at one point in my life walked away from God. I do not believe that you can be saved one day and lost the next. I do believe that over time if one goes without praying and reading Gods Word that our spirits began to get weak. We, just as our children sometimes do, can leave to protecting of our Father. Someone once ask me, in a discussion about this same topic, that if one of my children would do something terrible wouldn't they still be my children, I replied yes but I could take them out off my "will." I believe we must be in the will of our Father. As being someone very concerned about family members I do not believe this way to be difficult as it would be comforting to thinkt they are okay. I noticed in one response the Verse John 3:16, the word says "believeth in him SHOULD not perish but have eternal life." the word should does not make it mean eternal. We all have things we should do and even have things we shouldn't but despite the precious blood that was shed so that no body should have to perish some still will. Not trying to debate just stating my opinion. Thanks and the best way to know for sure is to live as close to God as possible so we don't leave room for doubt.
     
  18. ROBERTGUWAPO

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    First of all, I want everybody to know that I believe in eternal security. I teach a baptismal class for new members and the subject of eternal security is one course they have to go through. I believe that 99.99% of the verses in bible prove that eternal security is the reality.

    HOWEVER, the .01% verses of Hebrews just cannot be dismissed outright and they really scare me because I cannot SATISFACTORILY explain them to myself and to others. Even the reliable Christian commentaries cannot give satisfactory answers; they tend to just skip the issue instead of grappling the bull by the horns.

    Isn't it even minutely possible that Hebrews 6 is talking about Christians? Hebrews 6 talks about "persons" who:

    1. have been ENLIGHTENED
    2. who have TASTED the HEAVENLY GIFT
    3. who have TASTED the GOODNESS of the WORD OF GOD
    4. can FALL AWAY...meaning they were once standing...

    Now, perhaps Hebrews 6 isn't enough; let us go to Hebrews 10. Hebrews 10:26-30 talks about people who:

    1. have RECEIVED knowledge of the TRUTH
    2. have been SANCTIFIED
    3. are his PEOPLE ("The Lord will judge his people)

    Now that I've put on my kevlar helmet, can anybody explain Hebrews 6 and 10 satisfactorily and with clarity?

    What about this scenario: A truly saved person who leads a normal life, who constantly struggles with sin, falls a lot sometimes, will be saved to the end. But what about a truly-saved-at-the-beginning Christian who gets disillusioned, does not persevere, raises his fist to God, mocks God, completely renounces Christianity, and becomes a Satanist--you mean this person will get saved to the end? Cannot Hebrews 6 and 10 be a dreadful warning?

    Before you fire your weapons, please be reminded again that I believe in once-saved-always-saved, HOWEVER....

    :eek:
     
  19. word_digger

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    I think a lot of this loose salvation stuff comes from a lack of understanding about matters of "flesh" vs. "spirit" and the differences between body, soul, and spirit, and what "born again" means. I have a page on my wed site that deals extensively with these issues. Ye must be born again

    This is what rightly dividing is all about.
     
  20. Don

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    Robert, see my original response to fwbbcflames for a response about "a truly saved in the beginning type person."
     

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