Eternal Security - No debate

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by drfuss, Oct 12, 2006.

  1. drfuss

    drfuss
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    The Roman Catholic Church did not believe in eternal security before the reformation and it still doesn't. I don't think the Eastern Orthodox Church believed in eternal security either.

    My question is: Who was the first theologian or group that publically believed in eternal security during and after Martin Luther's time?

    As far as I can tell, it was John calvin. Is that true?

    Let's avoid debating eternal security or if the early church believed in eternal security.
     
  2. LeBuick

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    Polycarp..... :applause:
     
  3. drfuss

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    I think Polycarp was long before Martin Luther's time.
     
  4. Pipedude

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    What did Polycarp say?
     
  5. Not_hard_to_find

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    Sorry, I don't see that in his letter to Philippi. Where is it found?

    Polycarp is a fascinating study, isn't he?
     
  6. PASTOR MHG

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    Not trying to debate or cause problems, but John Calvin did not believe in "eternal security"... he believed in "perseverance of the saints."

    If you take the time to really study the positions you will see that they are not the same, even though most Calvinist would like to tell you they are.

    Max
     
  7. drfuss

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    Do both believe "Once saved, Always saved?

    I understand how the justification for eternal security would be different for calvinists and non-calvinists. But isn't the "once saved, always saved" belief the same?
     
  8. PASTOR MHG

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    If you are talking only about the very basic concept "once saved, always saved" then I suppose you are correct.

    As to your historical question... I have read somewhere of the Waldenses as early as the 14th century being Calvinistic (before Calvin). Forgive my memory lapse on the source, I will try to find it. I came across it when I was doing a study about "eternal security" throughout church history.

    Max
     
  9. Pipedude

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    Somebody tell me what Polycarp said about OSAS :mad:
     
  10. Gold Dragon

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    Since we only have one surviving text from Polycarp and it isn't that long, this should be easy to show.

    The following link has 3 english translations of Polycarp to the Philippians.



    I personally would agree with the OP that it started with Calvin, but I haven't really researched this topic.
     
  11. Pipedude

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    I just read Lightfoot's translation and I didn't see anything in it that looked like OSAS. In fact, he says "He that raised Him from the dead will raise us also; if we do His will and walk in His commandments and love the things which He loved" (2:2) and "if we be well pleasing unto Him in this present world, we shall receive the future world also" (5:2), which sounds like conditional security.

    I guess I overlooked it. What did Polycarp say about OSAS?
     
  12. drfuss

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    It appears that eternal security became a openly believed doctrine by various groups during the Reformation.

    During the time of Calvin, was eternal security believed independent of calvinism?

    During the Reformation, did the eternal security belief come from Calviists who later decided they could not believe in unconditional election or irresistible grace, but retained their belief in eternal security?
     
  13. whatever

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    Actually, most Calvinists that I know, myself included, would tell you that they are not the same.

    Hebrews 3:14 - "For we share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end."

    Perhaps it would help if our OP poster would define "eternal security".
     
    #13 whatever, Oct 14, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 14, 2006
  14. drfuss

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    Okay.
    Eternal security definition - Once saved, always saved. A Christian cannnot forfeit their salvation or lose their salvation.
     
  15. whatever

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    Just to clarify - I've been told that a person may sincerely pray to receive Christ and then later renounce that belief and still be saved. Would you agree or disagree?
     
  16. drfuss

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    I disagree. However, Charles Stanley believes that a Christian can renounce Christ and still be saved according to his book on eternal security.

    I think I see what you are getting at.
    Previous definition.
    Eternal security definition - Once saved, always saved. A Christian cannnot forfeit their salvation or lose their salvation

    Is this a better definition?

    Eternal security definition - Once saved, always saved. A Christian will not stop trusting in Christ and cannot lose his salvation.
     
    #16 drfuss, Oct 14, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 14, 2006
  17. whatever

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    That's clearer, thanks. Unfortunately, I do not know who was the first theologian or group that publically believed in eternal security (according to that definition) during and after Martin Luther's time. Did Luther not believe something similar?
     
  18. ituttut

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    Don't know if we can find when the term OSAS began, but we know its beginning. Belief in "eternal security" is not the same as OSAS, in understanding when OSAS began. We know the beginning of both, and "eternal security" began at the beginning.
     
  19. Benjamin

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    I would give you the answer if I could Pipedude because you're an alright guy, but I didn't even know those kind of fish could talk.
     
  20. Brother Bob

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    Here is the Scripture but you have to be a free-will because its after you "believe" that you receive this seal.

    Ephesians, chapter 1

    "13": In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, :wavey: :godisgood:
     

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