Eternal Security...The Wide Gate.

Not the intent I read into it, jcf. Glad I asked first .

Apparantly, we are on different sides on this issue. I doubt that I can convince you, and I know that you cannot convince me. But I really want to try to understand how anyone comes to the conclusion that salvation depends upon man keeping it himself.

In Christ,
Trotter

 

Ah, so now the question becomes how can can we undo something God has done in a way He has not foreseen? Well, that, my dear Trotter, is impossible. It is also not the question you originally asked.

Yes, apparently you missed the lesson teaching you how impolite it is to tell someone what they believe rather than asking them. No one has proposed that God is a tease.

It is your right to believe whatever you wish, and if such mental gymnastics make you feel comfortable, then more power to you! Just refrain from insulting those who don't care to do them with you. Again, no one has proposed that those who are saved never sin again. Perhaps you are under the impression that those who believe differently than you also believe in the revolving door of salvation -- every sin causes a loss of salvation until confession of that particular sin which then regains salvation until the next sin . . . That too is a grievous error.

Quite simply, by rejecting the gift of grace. How any Christian could possibly reject his Lord and Savior is beyond me, but I cannot understand how anyone could refuse to accept God's gift of grace to begin with - yet they do. It makes no sense to me that someone would make such a choice, but neither does it make sense for scripture to warn us about falling away if it were impossible for us to do so!

We are able to grasp only a small portion of the magnificence of God. When we come to something about Him that is beyond our ability to understand we try to reason our way around it, but the result is a box too small to confine Him.

God seems to delight in paradox, have you noticed that? He who wants to live must die; he who wants to be greatest must be the servant of all, etc. God is certainly able to keep us from falling, and He will do so, if we allow it. He is not so insecure that He must keep all power in His own hands. He gave to us something very powerful - choice. And He does not take our choice away once we become His. He desires love freely given, and any compulsion on His part would destroy that freedom. And so the paradox - eternal security and the danger of falling away. Both true. Do I understand it? No. But I am able to accept things about God that are too great for me to understand.

To him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy— to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

The Holy Bible : New International Version. Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1996, c1984. Jud 24-25.

 

I've read all the posts in this thread with interest. I believe that Eternal Security is true and sound doctrine. The biggest argument against it seems to be the idea that somebody can basically walk away from salvation and lose it.

For those of you who believe this, how do you reconcile Galatians 2:20 and Hebrews 13:5 with this idea?

Galatians 2:20
I am crucified with Christ nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Hebrews 13:5
"... for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee."

So, if Christ lives in me, and he said that he would never leave me, how is it possible that I could walk away from salvation, thus losing it?

Thanks!

Chris

 

Salvation Security doctrine
is about the faithfulness
of God. Salvation insecurity doctrine
is about the perfidy of humans.

 

Gee, a whole lot of "we/me" in there. Just who are you depending on/in for your salvation? Sounds like you are trying to carry it all yourself. If you are able to do that, then Christ died in vain.

Our salvation begins, continues, and culminates in God, not man/us. Salvation is by grace, not works. Grace is what God does. Works are what we do. So, who is holding your salvation? I know Who is holding mine.

In Christ,
Trotter

 

I don't know, it sounds Biblical to me.


Romans 12:1 1Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship.

Ephesians 5:1-3 Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children; and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma.But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints;

Philippians 2:16-18 holding fast the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I will have reason to glory because I did not run in vain nor toil in vain. But even if I am being poured out as a drink offering upon the sacrifice and service of your faith, I rejoice and share my joy with you all. You too, I urge you, rejoice in the same way and share your joy with me.

When you say 'our', you do mean of course those who know God. Or as Jesus said, those who put his teachings into practice.

 

Maybe I just missed it, but I need to understand something from those of you who believe in Eternal Insecurity. How many sins will it take for me to lose my salvation? If I have the ability to lose it, when does that happen? Just as there has to be a point of receiving the gift, there also has to be a point where I've told God that I just don't want eternal life anymore. When does that happen? The last thing I want is to lose my salvation, so what do I do to make sure that doesn't happen?

I John 5:13
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

This verse says that I can know I have eternal life. Other people tell me that I can't know that I have eternal life. Help me understand how you explain I John 5:13.

I posted the question earlier about Jesus Christ living in me and that he would never leave me. I was told that the Hebrews quote meant something different than what I thought, so I have another question. What about this?

Matthew 28:20
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Jesus said here that he would be with us always, which is what I thought was said in Hebrews 13:5, but I've been told differently. Hebrews 13:5 and Matthew 28:20 may not be inherently referring to Eternal Security, but when taken into consideration with the idea of Jesus living in me, how does that not apply to Eternal Security?

Thanks!

Chris

 

And please explain how we can evict the Holy Spirit Who takes up residence within us?

And please explain how the sacrifice of Christ is insufficient to maintain eternal security?

And please explain why Jesus lied to Nicodemas in John chapter 3?

In Christ,
Trotter

 

By not putting Jesus' teachings into practice.

Because we aren't actually judged righteous until judgement day?

For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. "But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."


It seems to me that Jesus did not lie to Nicodemas. "He who practices the truth comes from the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God".

Jesus never claimed salvation for those who are not God's.

 

I just lost a big post again. I'm not patient enough to post it again, but I will give you the verses I used. I'll explain them later if you don't see the message I was trying to bring:

Try reading 1 Corinthians 4:4-5 My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. 5Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men's hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God.

1 Corinthians 5:5 hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord.

Matthew 13:18-23 Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: 19When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is the seed sown along the path. 20The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away. 22The one who received the seed that fell among the thorns is the man who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke it, making it unfruitful. 23But the one who received the seed that fell on good soil is the man who hears the word and understands it. He produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.”

 

If you are continuing to say that we aren't justified immediately at the time of salvation, then I don't agree with that. I'm not entirely sure where you're going with these verses, so additional explanation would be great. I will patiently await your explanation.

Thanks!

Chris

 

When is it that Paul is saying we are to be judged? What does Paul say about judging before that time?

Here we have another reference to the fact that judgement has not yet been handed down. The judgement happens at a paticular time, but it isn't now. It is on judgement day. Hence the name 'judgement day'.

 

Five Judgements

The Lord God is a judging God

"To judge" can mean three things in the Holy Bible:

A. to discern between good and evil (human function)
B. to condemn, usually falsely (human function)
C. to reward the just & punish the evil (Godly function)

The Five Judgements:

1. Believers for SIN on the Cross
WHO: All who will Believe
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a merciful God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: found innocent by the Bood of Jesus

How to get from judgement 1 to judgement 2
(and avoid judgements 3, 4, or 5):

Romans 10:9 (KJV): "That if thou
shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt
believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from
the dead, thou shalt be saved."

2. Judgement Seat of Christ
WHO: Believers for works
WHEN: during the Great Tribulation on earth;
Right after the Rapture/Resurrection that starts
the Tribulation
WHERE: Heaven
WHY: to assign rewards (including
the Millinnial Kingdom rest)
to the redeemed for their good works
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: found innocent by the Bood of Jesus

3. Judgement of Yisrael under Antichrist
(Ezekiel 22:17-22 Time of Jacob's Trouble; Ezekiel 20:34-38;
Jeremiah 30:1-24; Revelation 6-19)
WHO: Yisrael
WHEN: during the Tribulation
WHERE: earth
WHY: The Lord God fulfills His promises
HOW: The wrath of God by Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Great Tribulation

4. Throne of His Glory judgement
WHO: the nations: the living survivers of the Great Tribulation
(these people are NOT saved, they are human in human bodies)
WHEN: after the Great Tribulation, before the Millennial Age
WHERE: Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God fulfills His promises: God will bless those
who bless Yisrael and curse those who curse Yisrael
HOW: Judged by their treatment of Yisrael
WHAT: the cursed to Hell; the blessed to the Millennial Age

5. Great White Throne judgement
WHO: the wicked dead
WHEN: after the Millennial Age; before endless ages
WHERE: between Hell and the Lake of Fire
WHY: The Lord God is not mocked
HOW: The wrath of God by Messiah Jesus
WHAT: the Messiah rejectors consigned to endless punishment

NOTE: The delineation of the five revealed
judgements above does not preclude other specific
or general judgements. One place on the net i found
a chart where TWENTY-FOUR judgements were delineated.
The Lord God is a judging God and His hand is not shortened
by His revelation to us nor
by our understaning of His revelation to us.

May Jesus our Savior and our Lord be Praised!

--compilation by ed,
incurable Jesus Phreaque

 

Ed,

[sarcasm]If it's in the KJV and you understand it to mean this then it certainly must mean what you think it means. [/sarcasm]

We are warned many times in the Bible that lip service is meaningless. If you want to clarification of what Romans 3:16 means, read the part that I put in bold in my post: February 16, 2005 12:21 AM.


If you are correct then I wish you were around during Paul's time so that you could correct him.

 

Eladar, the verses you bolded are found in John, not Romans. John, not Paul, was quoting what Jesus said to Nicodemus.

If there is some other meaning of Romans 10:9, please explain, because it seems pretty plain in meaning to me.

Finally, please explain how the blood of Jesus isn't sufficient to wash my sins away. If you get done with that, then please explain why Jesus suffered like he did and shed his blood for us if it wasn't enough to accomplish our salvation.

Thanks!

Chris