Eternity in heaven?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Lacy Evans, May 4, 2007.

  1. Lacy Evans

    Lacy Evans
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    Where do we get the idea scripturally that the redeemed will dwell in heaven for eternity? I see us at best, waiting temporarily in heaven for our new bodies and for the redemption of the earth, then coming back with Christ to reign over a new heaven and earth from Jerusalem.

    I really don't see much in scripture at all about spending eternity in heaven.

    Lacy

     
  2. Helen

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    I will be with my Lord, and that will be heaven for me, no matter what arguments people make about the 'physical' location. In the new creation the dwelling of God is with man, therefore heaven comes down, if you like...
     
  3. Lacy Evans

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    I can't really argue with that. You need to put "heaven" in quotes though if you are going to use it that way.

    I think the notion of dwelling in heaven obscures the doctrine of the ressurrection. Too many people carry the notion that when you die, you go to heaven . . .end of story. There is too little emphasis of Christ's coming Kingdom and the redemption of creation.

    Lacy
     
  4. His Blood Spoke My Name

    His Blood Spoke My Name
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    Matthew 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

    God, the Father, is in heaven.

    John 14:2-3 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

    Where is Christ now?
    Colossians 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

    If God is in heaven, and Christ is at His right hand and He went to prepare a place in His Father's House for us... we will have our house in heaven.
     
  5. Brandon C. Jones

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    I'm with you Lacy, this thinking usually hampers a healthy belief in the resurrection. Somehow a certain interpretation of John 14 has trumped other passages like the one in your OP. There are other ways to interpret John 14, but it's hard to transfer what's said in Revelation 21 to heaven.

    It seems some people seek a new heaven but aren't interested in a new earth. I think it will be this earth refined keeping the parallelism in 2 Peter between the refining with water and fire, but of course this interpretation is debatable.

    BJ
     
  6. Helen

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    No, I don't need to put it in quotes. In the OT, the 'third heaven', the one Paul was translated to, is God's Throne. When the dwelling of God is with man, in the new creation, then heaven itself will have indeed come down.

    Also, to Brandon -- it is not a refining of anything. The very elements will be destroyed by heat/fire and there will be a NEW creation.

    But as for the promise Jesus made about taking us to be where He is, that is pretty clear, and where He is, right now, is NOT earth! His Holy Spirit is here, indwelling us, but Jesus is clearly said to be sitting at the right hand of the Father.

    So it seems, and adding Paul's statements to it, that when we die, or are separated from these bodies we have now, we go directly to be with the Lord. And that is definitely heaven. However there will be a new creation -- a new heaven and a new earth, as the old one will have been destroyed. And in the new creation, when the dwelling of God is with man, then heaven and earth will have merged. Thus, we will still be in heaven with the Lord, but also on the new earth.
     
  7. J. Jump

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    It always amazes me how much people want to hold onto tradition despite what Scripture says about a matter :(
     
  8. Brandon C. Jones

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    You know Christ did come to the disciples again after he spoke with them in John 14. Why is this key aspect ignored when discussing the text?

    For instance, what is Jesus referring to in John 16:22? Most people think it's the resurrection here, but for some reason in John 14 most people think it's the second coming. I'll admit I'm open to the dominant interpretation of John 14, but there are some holes to it. For another interpretation I recommend N. T. Wright's "The Resurrection of the Son of God;" it's a good book.

    I think the prepared place Jesus speaks of is a temporary place for His people between death and resurrection. This understanding surely does not conflict with Pauline passages, especially 1 Corinthians 15. I don't consider 2 Corinthians 5 to be problematic, but that's a whole other discussion.

    BJ
     
    #8 Brandon C. Jones, May 4, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: May 4, 2007
  9. Helen

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    You have some good points Brandon, but I recall that we are the Bride of Christ, right? And in the Jewish ceremony the son will prepare a place for the bride at his father's house and come and get her when it is ready. They then live in the family 'compound' at the groom's father's home.

    If this pattern is to hold, then us being with Christ does mean really with Him, even until He comes to defeat the armies at Armageddon and reigns during the Millennium. At each point we appear to be with Him.
     
  10. J. Jump

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    Actually no the bride has not been revealed yet. The Holy Spirit is searching out the bride of Christ. As with Adam the bride will come out of the body, but will not comprise the entire body. There are other references in the OT and NT alike that bear this out further.

    Actually there is a time when Christ will go and deal with Israel with His bride not at His side as we see Moses return to his brethern, but his gentile wife did not return all the way with him.
     
  11. Brandon C. Jones

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    Hi Helen, I've heard that marriage stuff before but I think sometimes people let the framework override this text and others on the subject. It could be illuminating but such illuminating cultural insights can also provide fog.

    What part of my post(s) made you think I envision a time when Christ's people will not be with him? I surely affirm that Christ will always be with His people.

    He's even with us here despite our quibbles! Although I see no real disagreement here between us in this thread.

    BJ
     
  12. donnA

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    Heaven will be where ever I am with Jesus. I don't care where it is.
     
  13. J. Jump

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    [qutoe]I don't care where it is.[/quote]
    Donna no offense meant here, but if God has given us the specific information as to what is going to happen, we should care about what He has told us. But this is a prevailing sentiment throughout Christianity today that is terribly disturbing.

    God has given us great detail as to man's day and the coming Lord's day. What we don't have a lot of detail about is what will take place in the unending ages after the 1,000-year reign of Christ. But since we do have God's plan unfolded before us at least up until those unending ages start it would behoove us to gain an understanding of that.

    What happens is peole have been taught for so long now that they die and eternity begins that it has caused great confusion in the plan that God has actually laid out for us.

    Again no offense was intended as there are a great many that would join you in that statement.
     
  14. Rufus_1611

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    Here's an example of what some Baptists once confessed:

     
  15. Lacy Evans

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    There is no such thing in the Bible as "Heaven for me"

    or Donna,

    ??????

    Heaven is Heaven! Earth is Earth. I agree that as long as He is there it will be like "heaven," but it won't be in Heaven unless the Bible says it will!
     
    #15 Lacy Evans, May 4, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: May 4, 2007
  16. saturneptune

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    Helen, I will bet you can answer this question. You always seem to have good insight into creation, life in other places but earth, and eternity.

    Isn't it fair to say that in eternity, that one cannot even use the same mindset we have here, that is two locations? In other words, in the physical world, we say we are going from home to work, or home to church, two distinct points. It seems we may not be able to use the same concept in eternity. So, to go from earth to heaven in eternity might not be how we think of it now. Any thoughts Helen?
     
  17. Lacy Evans

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    I'm not Helen and not a scientist, but I do think this is plausable. The fact that Christ was able to just instantly appear and disappear after his ressurrection gives at least some support to that. It seems to me that you would have to be able to outrun light (or something) to do that, and that suggests that the laws of physics for our next existance might work differently.

    But it is all spectulative. There is just not much Biblical info about what happens after the Millennial Kingdom.


    lacy
     
  18. ituttut

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    A question that may help us to understand. When did paradise come, and could not come before its time?

    Another question to help as to who the Bride is. Are we of the "Bridegroom"? Can the "Church" be the bride, we who are now of His Body, His Flesh, and His Bones. That means someone else, His betrothed is His Bride to be.
     
  19. Brother Bob

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    Has anyone or have you heard of anyone who believes the "New Earth" is our "New Bodies"? We are the earth. We are made of the earth and it will be changed in the resurrection and made over new. Just a thought?

    Rev 21:5And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

    Jhn 3:31 He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.
    1 Corth; 15
    47: The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
    48: As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
    49: And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
    50: Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
    51: Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
    52: In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
    53: For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
    54: So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
    55: O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?




    (edit)2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

    He does have power over the clay. It will be the same it, but made over new.
     
    #19 Brother Bob, May 4, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: May 4, 2007
  20. webdog

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    You mean like...I can fly from Cleveland to Hawaii...but both locations are the USA?

    I do know that God will choose to reside with man one day...here on earth, after it is renewed like our bodies. I will disagree with Helen that earth will be destroyed and a "new" earth created. God deemed this earth "good". Destroying this earth and creating a new one would be an admittance that the original creation was flawed, or at least would indicate God has no power over sin and the effects of it...meaning it couldn't have been "good". It will be restored...like all creation...from the effects of sin. Our new bodies will be a result of our decayed, sin corrupted bodies. New Earth will also be a result of a decayed, sin corrupted earth.
     

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