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Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Ps104_33, Nov 27, 2004.
Here ia a good article I thought I would pass along.
Europe, are you nuts?
I agree with most of it, with the exception of a couple of inaccurate details.
Let the nitpicking commence.
-The American press (especially the more Conservative part) would have shown a similar response to a number of European election results if they had ever bothered to pay attention (my own country's current PM comes to mind).
-By the time Theo van Gogh was murdered he had offended everybody in the country over the age of 12 at least once and all Jews, Moslims, Christians, the complete political establishment and everybody opposed to crude language and behaviour numerous times. And the BB moderators can assure you after a couple of incidents with me, that the Dutch standard of what is crude is laxer than the American one.
-A number of the standards of Western Civilization that the author claims Europe has abondened seem to be alive and well overhere as far as I can see.
-The Americans slaughter comparatively a lot more babies by abortion than the Europeans do.
-I would at least include France and Switzerland in the list of European countries that have a strong enough military to defend themselves. Before everybody starts laughing about the French military, a foreign legion and a nuclear arsenal can cover a multitude of sins.
Agreed. The other thing with which I take issue is the assertion that the US has remained faithful to Western European (Christian) ideals whereas Europe has abandoned those. The secularisation issue aside (although I have heard many a poster here complain about the same secularisation in the US), what I think we are looking at is a divergence in the interpretation of Western Christian culture between the US and Western Europe, not an abandonment by one and the upholding of it by the other. Christianity in the US from colonial times onwards - and to a large extent society and culture there - was based largely on the Radical Reformation with its emphasis on the cult of the individual whereas Europe has remained much more rooted in the idea of Christendom, whether the Magisterial Reformation type or old-fashioned Catholicism, with its far greater emphasis on (Christian) community and, ultimately, the state and governments as the representation of that community.
Yours in Christ
Basic agreement with the issues raised in respose to the article. I strongly question the idea that the US has held to "Western European (Christian) ideals."
US society has been secularised. There is more freedom of religion in many schools in Europe that there is in US public schools. I have gone into Catholic goeverment schools here to share the gospel and when my son was serving a year in Northern Ireland they often held chapel services in the government backed school.
Good article, but like most finger pointing, it ignores the fact that the fingers point both ways.
I don't know what you mean by Magisterial Reformation but the so-called emphasis on community and the state and the governmental role in such a community seems only to mask a socialistic, welfare state.
And the Catholic Church has been so unable to reform themselves that they have made themselves irrelevant--passing their time calling people saints and then praying to them, allowing priests to molest teenage boys worldwide but not allowing them to marry women, and unable to escape a merit theology that says that certain duties have to be performed in order to go to Heaven and that a priest can forgive sin. In poor countries like Mexico, Catholics forbid birth control and then export the surplus population to a Protestant country, trying to Catholize the USA.
As for abortion, true it is borrowed from Hitler, but it was done by a corrupt set of judges who overthrew the constitution at the urging of liberals and other haters of God and lovers of death.
As for the French Foreign Legion, they are a superb fighting force, but the last I heard, their training is completed by physical violence against the trainee--a type of brutality not allowed in American military training.
The paper trail from Iraq has shown the world how France was milking Iraq for many years.
Magisterial Reformation = Calvinist/ Presbyterian, Lutheran/ Evangelical, and Anglican Churches, most if not all of which have some kind of official or semi-official link to the state. Radical Reformation = Baptist, Anabaptist and other Congregationalists.
Americans are more likely to view anything resembling corporatism as being 'socialistic' precisely because of the individualist heritage and outlook they have inherited; likewise, Europeans tend to view American society as being tremendously uncaring and only 'looking out for #1'. Both views are inaccurate and tainted by our respective worldviews which are largely the legacies of those two different Reformation intrepretations
Yours in Christ
I called Baptists "third-wave" because they broke off from the second-wave who broke off from the original denominations of the Reformation.
I consider myself a mild Calvinist. I have no disagreements with the Baptist Faith and Message of the Southern Baptist Convention.
Click here to read the Baptist Faith & Message of the SBC
Your standard response to anything foreign can be sommed up with the line:"If any country/church/organization does anything different from the US way of doing things they are defiant and wrong and evil."
The writer of this article must be sitting on some serious hemorrhoids.
Where do americans come from (apart from the native indians) if not from Europe? Where do american values come from, if not from the immigrants who helped build America, from Europe.
It is not true that France is a secular country. It is true of Great Britain, but not of France. We separate, like the US, church and state, but it does not mean that religion is not in our lives. Paris is not typical, but in provincial areas, values still mean something and religion has its place.
It is not true that France's military is weak. On the contrary, it is with the UK the strongest in Europe. Both countries have the nuclear weapon and France's soldiers work side by side with the US army in Afghanistan, for example (where we teach them a few things about how to deal with the locals in our common search for Ben Laden).
The writer is proud of american wines? Blah. He's welcome to drink them. I will stick to Bordeaux and Champagne, thank you very much.
Where does all his hate come from anyway? He does not like the fact that we do not like Bush? Hey it is just that in Europe, we can count. And we are just not used to the idea that when 500,000 more people vote for a guy, that guy cannot be President only because he did not have his cousin calling the shots at Fox or his brother conspiring to steal the election in Florida.
Had 2000 happened in France rather than Florida, the French would have had a revolution on their hands. And the writer thinks the French don't care about what happens in the news? Well they do. But unless it happens on their soil first, the French will not rise, they'll just keep sending the Foreign Legion and the Paras.
That is the Democrat party line about 2000. Too bad that it is not true, isn't it? The one with the most electoral votes wins in this country--we have what is called a republic.
Mioque, don't feel bad. If Europe could ever reform themselves, they might have a good life like the average American.
What you have is more like a dictature. The electoral college is a mockery. It worked fine when you had to ride a horse to transport results of votes, but nowadays, it desserves democracy.
The Republic of America. Would sound great if only it was not a castle in Spain.
Hmm - lets see a show of hands - "How many of you Europeans wish you were Americans?"
I suppose most Europeans think they have a good life. The standard of living in some European nations is higher than it is in America, particularly in the last few years.
WWII ended a long time ago.
What you have is more like a dictature. The electoral college is a mockery. It worked fine when you had to ride a horse to transport results of votes, but nowadays, it desserves democracy. </font>[/QUOTE] NO! Absolutely, positively not!
We have a form of government that by design protects rights rather than promoting majority opinion. I don't want a democracy. I like my rights and my freedoms that remain and am very interested in restoring those that have been diminished. I am not interested in having a system where crooked, liberal (in the American, not classic sense) politicians can garner 50.00000001% then deny my rights.
The 20th century saw the protection of rights break down to an extent as secularization, democratization, and populism undermined the American ideal of what constitutes a "right". Judicial activism was the vehicle used to circumvent what was an intentionally difficult process of changing our Constitution.
We have a "dictature". That's a joke. Even with a Republican majority in Congress and President Bush, sweeping changes are not all that likely. Our system is intentionally deliberate and slow. If the people continue to vote conservatives into office, we may see significant change in 10 or 20 years.
Bush is far from having dictatorial powers. For one, the Dems are motivated by a white hot hatred of him and are watching for any slip. Second, most of the national political media in America (something like 90%) are liberal Democrats. Bush has not and will not get a free ride.
The electoral college isn't a product of transportation limitations. The electoral college ensures that the citizens of every state have a say in who gets to be President.
If it were purely democratic then only the concerns and desires of the people of NY, California, Texas, Florida, Illinois, Ohio, and Pennsylvannia would be considered important since that is where the greatest concentrations of votes can be found. Under the electoral college, the rights and concerns of North Dakota, Alaska, New Mexico, Montana, and the other low population states count.
Defined by what?
When I was in Switzerland a few months ago, the news reported continued economic woes for the EU. Germany was still over 10% unemployment.
The Swiss have a significant and growing immigration problem from the Balkans among other places causing ethnic resentment to form. Their economy and form of government is feeling the stress of these outsiders who are avoiding the stringent immigration and naturalization process.
Although I am often accused of being liberal (what a laugh) I will side with the wisdom of the electoral college. It is often derided by Europeans simply because of a lack of understanding. The same reason, btw, that European states are crticised by Americans.
I suspect we understand the Europeans as well as they understand us.
I lived in Italy for 3 years and Different places in Asia for 9 years.When I lived in italy I did some traveling and learned that Europeans are not Americans and Americans are not Europeans.Our cultures are different.Now I prefer the American form of government and American culture,small wonder this is where I was raised and have spent most of my life.I would imagine MOST Europeans prefer it where they are for the same reasons I have for liking it where I am.
Super post POB
"How many of you Europeans wish you were Americans?"
Not me, the US is a nice place to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there.
"If Europe could ever reform themselves, they might have a good life like the average American. "
I have never been in debt, earned 2 degrees from a respected university, I've never needed to worry about my healthcare, will be retired before age 70, have more vacation time than anybody in the States with a similar job and will spend much of that vacationtime in interesting foreign locations. I'm a minimum wage earner by the way, the standard of living of most Dutchies is higher than mine.
Folks you can start turning green with envy now.
Scott J has defended the point of having a republic very well. Thank you, Scott J.!
Europeans will always attack the American republic; afterall they still had monarchies when America had a republic.
We will see if Europe has changed any as we watch the situation with Iran's building an atomic bomb. We will see if France and Germany want to help use military force against Iran if necessary. Afterall, Iran can reach Europe with nuclear weapons if Iran is not stopped.