Evangelical Catholic Church

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Dr. Bob, Apr 14, 2004.

  1. Dr. Bob

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    A BB reader (who cannot post) asked me about this issue and I am finding conflicting websites and information on:

    Evangelical Catholic Church
    Evangelical Catholics
    Independent Evangelical Catholic Church
    Evangelical Catholic Initiative

    Any single-paragraph summaries that might distinguish between the beliefs/practices of catholics who use these names?

    Thanks.
     
  2. Kiffin

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    My understanding is that the Evangelical Catholic Church is a Lutheran Church. Their doctrinal confession is the Lutheran Book of Concord. They appear to be very high church and claim apostolic succession of bishops.

    They also appear to have a strong influence of the Russian Orthodox Church. The cross on Luther's Reformation Flower on their homepage has the Russian cross. Their liturgy is more similar to Eastern Orthodox liturgy and they hold to the Eastern version of the Nicene Creed that states I believe in The Holy Ghost, The Lord and Giver of life; Who proceeds from The Father rather than the Western version found in Roman Catholic and Protestant Churches I believe in The Holy Ghost, The Lord and Giver of life; Who proceeds from The Father and the Son. Interesting Church. Here is their homepage http://members.aol.com/EvCathCh/index.HTML
     
  3. Psalm145 3

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    ox•y•mo•ron n : a combination of contradictory words (as cruel kindness)

    EVANGELICAL CATHOLICS is an example of an oxymoron.

    EVANGEL'ICAL, a. [Low L. evangelicus, from evangelium, the gospel; Gr. well, good, to announce.]

    1. According to the gospel; consonant to the doctrines and precepts of the gospel, published by Christ and his apostles; as evangelical righteousness, obedience or piety.

    2. Contained in the gospel; as an evangelical doctrine.

    3. Sound in the doctrines of the gospel; orthodox; as an evangelical preacher.

    CATHOLIC, n. A papist.

    PA'PIST,n. A Roman catholic; one that adheres to the church of Rome and the authority of the pope.

    Are Catholics "sound in the doctrines of the gospel?" They themselves think they are, but Bible believing Christians know they are not.

    Is there any "Evangelical Catholic" that believes justification is by grace and faith ALONE, the unmerited, free grace of Christ whereby a man is eternally and completely and once-for-all saved from sin when he puts his faith in Christ?

    The Council of Trent has put forth its anathemas, but here is what the Spirit saith -- But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. Galatians 1:8-9.

    Evangelical Catholics are either false brethren or erring brethren. Christians are commanded to separate from those who are committed to error.

    2 Timothy 2:21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.
     
  4. Kiffin

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    No, you misunderstand the term Catholic. Catholic means "Universal". That is the Church is not bound to any nation or race. It is not synomous with Roman Catholicism.

    Catholic is used in the 1689 London Baptist Confession as well as most early Protestant documents. The early Protestants had no problem with the term. It is used also by the Russian, Greek, Coptic Orthodox churches in describing themselves.

    There are those who describe themselves as Evangelical Roman Catholics BUT Catholic and Roman Catholic are not synomous terms.
     
  5. Dr. Bob

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    Evangelical Catholics = Lutherans!

    Now that is a poser!

    I work with a group of Catholics who do not recognize the pope/authority of Rome (or Constantinople) but they are not "evangelical" in our sense of the word.

    Others?
     
  6. Kiffin

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    I think the term Evangelical Catholic is a term many Lutherans have used as well as other Protestants. They are using the term in the way it was historically used. It however has nothing to do with posing as Roman Catholics.

    The Apostolic Fathers used the term often as do other Churches including most Protestants and some Baptists,

    Ignatius
    just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church" (Letter to the Smyrneans 8:2 [A.D. 110]).

    Cyril
    [The Church] is called Catholic, then, because it extends over the whole world,

    Martin Luther, Smalcald Articles
    I believe in one holy [catholic or] Christian Church. This holiness does not consist in albs, tonsures, long gowns, and other of their ceremonies devised by them beyond Holy Scripture, but in the Word of God and true faith.

    Belgic Confession of Faith (Reformed Church)
    We believe and profess one catholic or universal Church, which is a holy congregation of true Christian believers, all expecting their salvation in Jesus Christ, being washed by His blood, sanctified and sealed by the Holy Spirit.


    Even Baptists have used the term,

    London Baptist Confession 1689
    The catholic or universal church, which (with respect to the internal work of the Spirit and truth of grace) may be called invisible, consists of the whole number of the elect, that have been, are, or shall be gathered into one, under Christ, the head thereof; and is the spouse, the body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.


    Roman Catholics did not invent the term and is used by many Christian churches in differant ways.


    A good article on this is at
    http://www.wso.net/echohills/Brief/catholic.htm
     
  7. DHK

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    There are also Charasmatic Catholics. I am not sure if the Catholic Church that Carson attended at Steubenville (sp?) in Ohio was Charismatic, but by his own definition he would classify it as evangelical.
    DHK
     
  8. russell55

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    I remember when my daughter was in about 4th grade, I went to conferences and in her portfolio there was a report on wolves she had written that had a sentence something like this, "The wolf is very catholic in what he eats."

    Obviously, someone was doing a little too much just plain copying from sources. It made me laugh and made me wonder just exactly what that had meant to her when she wrote it. That the wolf gave up meat on Fridays during lent?

    Funny thing was, when I mentioned it to the teacher, she didn't understand what I thought was so funny. She hadn't realized the word had any other meaning than "not protestant".

    Okay, enough off-topic....
     
  9. John Gilmore

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    I have no objection to the title "Evangelical Catholic Church". It is title that the Lutheran Church should have chosen. My problem is with the theology of the ECC.

    The Evangelical Catholic Church says it "accepts" the Book of Concord but fails to state that it believes, teaches, and confesses the Book of Concord without reservation. Many of the teachings of ECC are specifically denied in Book of Concord. For example, the requirement for episcopal polity for the validity of sacraments, communion of infants, and invocation of the Holy Spirit are Eastern Orthodox doctrines that are all repudiated in the Book of Concord.

    The ECC is, therefore, a quasi-Lutheran, quasi-Orthodox sect.
     
  10. frozencell

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    Psalm -

    Be careful of the Scripture you quote.

    Luther taught a Gospel different than he was taught. Maybe he's the accursed one...

    And it's funny how Catholics wish and hope for Protestants to return to the Church (and call them the "seperated brethern") while Protestants spend a heck of a lot of time trying to distance themselves as much as possible.
     
  11. John Gilmore

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    Many Lutheran churches use a form of the Eastern liturgy. Simply omitting the filoque from the recitation of the creed does not deny that the Holy Ghost proceeds from the Son.

    More problematic is the eucharistic prayer, "make this bread the Sacred + Body of Your Christ". No work of man produces the presence of the Lord's body and blood but His words alone. By retaining the eucharistic prayer, the ECC denies justification by faith alone and the sacramental union of Christ's body and blood in, with, and under the bread and wine. This is Lutheranism?

    [ April 16, 2004, 05:30 AM: Message edited by: John Gilmore ]
     
  12. John Gilmore

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    This is about the Sum of our Doctrine, in which, as can be seen, there is nothing that varies from the Scriptures, or from the Church Catholic, or from the Church of Rome as known from its writers. Augsburg Confession

    Or maybe the Pope taught a Gospel different than he was taught. Maybe he's the accursed one...
     
  13. Kiffin

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    John, I agree with you that the eucharistic prayer sounds more Roman Catholic than Lutheran. (I am not a defender or promoter of this Church) Are you LCMS or WELS?
     
  14. frozencell

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    Maybe it's just too early for me still, but I fail to follow.
     
  15. frozencell

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    It's not by the words or works of the priest that the Lord is present in the Eucharist, but by the divine power that is God's alone. I hope that helps clear things up. And what does that have to do with faith?
     
  16. John Gilmore

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  17. John Gilmore

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    It's not by the words or works of the priest that the Lord is present in the Eucharist, but by the divine power that is God's alone. I hope that helps clear things up. And what does that have to do with faith? </font>[/QUOTE]If the Holy Supper is a means of grace whereby we receive the forgiveness of sins, then it can not be a human work. We are forgiven through faith alone, not of works less any man should boast. According to St. John Chrysostom, "This is my body" transforms the things offered not man's prayer of invocation:

    It is not man that causes the things offered to become the Body and Blood of Christ, but he who was crucified for us, Christ himself. The priest, in the role of Christ, pronounces these words, but their power and grace are God's. This is my body, he says. This word transforms the things offered. Catechism of the Catholic Church, 1375

    [ April 16, 2004, 11:46 PM: Message edited by: John Gilmore ]
     
  18. frozencell

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    The things he came up with are the MAJOR DIFFERENCES between Catholic and Protestant churches, so I fail to see how he can say that everything he believes is in line with the Catholic Church.
     
  19. John Gilmore

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    frozencell,

    The things he came up with were the abuses and false teachings that had crept into the Church of Rome. The Augsburg Confession appeals to the Church of Rome to return to the teachings of Scripture, the Church Catholic, and its own writers.

    Luther was not an original thinker. For example, when Luther deleted the eucharistic prayer from the Mass (which the ECC restored!), he was simply returning to the teachings of St. Chrysostom.

    There are major differences between Lutheran and Protestant churches as well because the Lutheran Church has been most careful that no new or ungodly doctrine creep into their churches.
     
  20. Kiffin

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    It should be noted there are MAJOR DIFFERENCES among Roman Catholics. From Evangelical type Roman Catholics such as Scott Hahn to outright apostates such as John Dominic Crossan. The RCC often has a organic unity but not a spiritual one.
     

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