Exchanging Shields of Gold for Shields of Brass

Discussion in 'Bible Versions/Translations' started by AVBunyan, Dec 2, 2006.

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  1. AVBunyan

    AVBunyan
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    Based upon a message by the late Dr. Jack Hyles
    2 Chr 12:9 So Shishak king of Egypt came up against Jerusalem, and took away the treasures of the house of the LORD, and the treasures of the king's house; he took all: he carried away also the shields of gold which Solomon had made.
    2 Chr 12:10 Instead of which king Rehoboam made shields of brass,…

    You should know the story. Because of sin God judged Jerusalem and then God sent Shisjak who attacked Jerusalem and took away the shields of gold. So, Rehoboam made shields of brass, which was a step down in quality.

    Yes, I understand these shields were for decoration only.
    Yes, I know that the average soldier would not go into battle with gold shields.
    I believe you get the application here.

    What has Christianity done today? Because of sin and neglect God sent the world, flesh, and the devil to take away the book God used for over 350 years. What has Christianity done about it? Oh, they have replaced their shields of gold with shields of brass, the modern versions. These brass shields are still shields but they not the same – they are not the real thing – the quality has dropped.

    Yes, I know, most really believe these shields of brass are still as good or even better than shields of gold.

    How did these gold shields that have held up for so long get replaced by inferior shields?
    What do these saints say the reasons are for exchanging the tried and proven gold shields for shields of brass?
    1. The old gold shields have flaws in them.
    2. Nobody uses gold anymore – brass is the new and popular element of choice.
    3. New and more improved ways of making shields though the material is still inferior.
    4. Better and more experienced shield makers today using more scientific methods.
    5. The common soldier has trouble using gold – brass is much easier to use.

    Here are my opinions on why the gold has been cast aside – you have yours – I have mine.
    1. The soldiers started neglecting (reading) the gold shields. They thought they could do without them. They forgot the good service they had done in past battles.
    2. The soldiers started loosing confidence in the gold because the “enlightened ones” convinced them they were flawed.
    3. Because of the neglect (II Tim. 4:3) they couldn’t tell the difference anymore between gold and brass.
    4. Because of sin and worldliness the gold shields became to convicting and authoritative.
    5. They were fooled by Madison Avenue marketing techniques (I Tim. 6:10).
    6. They became mesmerized by scholars and education (Col 2:8).
    7. They wanted something new (Acts 17:21) – they wanted to rebel against the established ways like many did in the 60’s.
    8. They forgot or never read of the history of the old battles and victories of the soldiers who used the gold shields.

    Now what are some of the results of replacing the gold shields with brass ones? Are the brass shields solely responsible for the below? No, but they have greatly aided though.

    1. Sound doctrine has gone by the wayside – the average soldier today can’t even write down how they got saved if they are even saved. They can’t see the false doctrine in the brass shields for they are not grounded in sound doctrine.
    2. The youth look and act more like the world every day – same sounding music, sports, ear rings, movies, etc.
    3. Business methods have replaced spiritual methods in building churches.
    4. Numbers have replaced quality in churches.
    5. Less true evangelism
    6. Dumbed-down church members
    And more….

    You may be asking, “Where do get the above 6 results from? That’s just your opinion.” I have my opinion – you have yours. Actually, I get the above by comparing the lives of the saints over the past 350 years with the saints today. What is the main difference between the past and the present? The past had one book and they believed it - the present has multiple/conflicting books with no real confidence. Some may try and convince me the saints of today are more spiritual than those of the past? If you do then I question your standard of judgment.

    * Can one survive on MacDonald’s fast food?
    Well, yes, but their health will suffer.

    * Are most ingredients there in the fast food to sustain life?
    Well, yes, but there is also a lot of other things in there that are not good for you as well.

    But that’s fine with many because they have grown to “like” the way it tastes – who cares what the fast food is doing to your insides.

    Folks – many have traded their shields of gold for shields of brass by their own choice.

    Bottom line – It appears that many of you believe the modern versions, generally speaking, are equal or even superior to that of a present day King James Bible – I do not. I’ve heard your arguments for over 25 years. I will stick with the gold.

    Amos 8:11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:
    Gal 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

    God bless and I bid you farewell….for now.

    Have a nice December and a safe holiday.
    :wavey:
     
  2. robycop3

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    You started off on the wrong foot very quickly, Mr. Bunyan...Brass in quantity was unknown to ancient Israel if they even knew of brass at all; the Hebrew word "n'chosheth" the KJV renders "brass" actually means "copper or bronze". And anything authored by Hyles immediately waves a red flag to most Christians; as YOU are a Christian, it shoulda waved one for you also.

    As for replacing gold shields with brass....

    1. A gold shield would be too heavy for use in battle...a given quantity of gold is a good deal heavier than an equal quantity of lead.

    2. Even if a person were able to carry a gold shield, it wouldn't stop a bullet.

    Hyles stated more than once that English-speaking people could be saved ONLY through the KJV. If that isn't enough to tell ya what a weirdo he was, then you have a problem. Outsida those times when he actually preached the Gospel, I put absolutely no stock in anything he said or wrote. If you got your KJVO myth from Hyles or someone similar, then indeed you needta go back to Square One & begin your studying all over again.
     
  3. Mexdeaf

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    AHH, Hyles- the master of Mis-Applied Scripture and Self- Exalting Stories.

    As He is on the other side now I am quite sure he has revised his beliefs.
     
  4. HankD

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    Hi AVB, I probably agree with you more than disagree but this allegory that you have made this infallible historical acount into could probably (as you hinted at) be applied in the opposite direction because a brass shield is for real warfare whereas the gold of Solomon shield's were probably a show of vanity.

    Though Solomon was a man of God, the wisest of men and faithful to Him for most of his life, sadly, he was an ulimate failure in the end

    KJV 1 Kings 11:1 But king Solomon loved many strange women, together with the daughter of Pharaoh, women of the Moabites, Ammonites, Edomites, Zidonians, and Hittites;
    2 Of the nations concerning which the LORD said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall not go in to them, neither shall they come in unto you: for surely they will turn away your heart after their gods: Solomon clave unto these in love.
    3 And he had seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines: and his wives turned away his heart.
    4 For it came to pass, when Solomon was old, that his wives turned away his heart after other gods: and his heart was not perfect with the LORD his God, as was the heart of David his father.
    5 For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Zidonians, and after Milcom the abomination of the Ammonites.
    6 And Solomon did evil in the sight of the LORD, and went not fully after the LORD, as did David his father.
    7 Then did Solomon build an high place for Chemosh, the abomination of Moab, in the hill that is before Jerusalem, and for Molech, the abomination of the children of Ammon.
    8 And likewise did he for all his strange wives, which burnt incense and sacrificed unto their gods.
    9 And the LORD was angry with Solomon, because his heart was turned from the LORD God of Israel, which had appeared unto him twice,

    KJV Nehemiah 13:26 Did not Solomon king of Israel sin by these things? yet among many nations was there no king like him, who was beloved of his God, and God made him king over all Israel: nevertheless even him did outlandish women cause to sin.

    KJV 1 Corinthians 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

    That is not to say that the AV was not proper in it's time and place and we all know (as someone else has pointed out) and recognize that God has done His work through this Bible for many centuries now.

    However to sweep aside the current movement of returning to the "koine" of the day for the common man as provided with the MV's and calling them (as in the site in question) a "deception" IMO invites the wrath of God if it is indeed (the MV movement) of God Himself. Especially if these versions (as many do) are based upon the same families of Traditional Texts as the AV.

    Another fact: The AV was corrected for at least 2 centuries as history gives witness by comparing a nintenth century AV with a 17th century AV.
    Indeed some very serious errors were corrected (as the folly of the inclusion in the AV of the font of romish heresy, the Apocrypha).

    Give the MV's a chance.

    HankD
     
  5. Trotter

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    Actually, neither brass nor gold shields were used in battle,

    Shields were of wood that was strengthened with metal bands/rims. The outer surface could be covered with the metal, but most were covered with leather (which might be soaked with water if the enemy was using flaming arrows).

    The metal shields that are shown in the movies are just that... in the movies.
     
  6. AVBunyan

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    Fellas -
    I pulled this from my OP...

    "Yes, I understand these shields were for decoration only.
    Yes, I know that the average soldier would not go into battle with gold shields.
    I believe you get the application here."
     
    #6 AVBunyan, Dec 3, 2006
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  7. tinytim

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    I would rather have a brass sheild to battle Satan with than a Gold one which is for vanity.

    If you want to stick to your VAIN traditions rather than do real battle in the real modern speaking world, go for it. As for me, I can battle with the NIV as well as anyone else!
     
  8. AVBunyan

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    You missed the illustration completely -
    Do you normally have this much trouble understanding application during regular preachiing services?

    Mercy, I feel for your preacher.
     
    #8 AVBunyan, Dec 3, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 3, 2006
  9. tinytim

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    I never did get Hyles' applications.....they are distorted theology.
    I was being sarcastic.
    And for regular preaching services.... I wouldn't call a Hyles' sermon "regular preaching" I have another name for it. But I'll be nice.
     
  10. NaasPreacher (C4K)

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    Dr Hyles used a really poor analogy here. On one hand he says that the gold shields were only for decoration and not for battle, and on the other hand he says it was wrong to replace.

    If I were going to battle I would prefer a shield that was useful and fit for the battle, not one that was useless for anything but a decoration to hang on my wall.

    If anything, Dr Hyle's analogy would argue against the KJV. Why would I use a Bible that was only pretty and decorative?

    As a KJV man I would never preach a message like this - my KJV is worth far more than a fancy decoration hanging on the wall.

    Dr Hyles truly missed the target on this one.
     
  11. robycop3

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    Sorry, AVB, but Hyles missed the mark, as was usual for him during the latter parta his life. He exalted the KJV as being more valuable than other versiona as gold shields were more valuable(for retail) than brass ones.

    All valid Bibles are of equal value. You cannot even begin to disprove that statement. Some are of more value to their target readership than others, but every one is more valuable than any other writings on earth.

    You're gonna hafta do a LOT BETTER than posting Hyles articles if ya wanna tryta make your false doctrine true.
     
  12. AVBunyan

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    Let's try this one more time -

    1. I mentioned Dr. Hyles out of respect so one wouldn't think I came up with idea on my own - trying to be honest. And all I've heard from you folks is negative towards the man.

    2. The point I was making was "value" not strength and battle. I've stated this several times. The King James Bible is the gold - your modern versions are brass...at best.

    You guys are making a lot out of nothing. You know my point.

    I think I've had enough - Feel free to think you've got the best of me and whatever else you may want to think or believe.

    If many of you believe all bibles are the same because the message is basically there then there is nothing more I can do. You've got one of your "heavy hitters" here that believes saints can loose their salvation!!!....how can he even understand the dangersous doctrinal changes in the modern versions then? And tiny tim on another thread makes a general statement alluding to KJV only folks are "know it alls" and this makes us "immature"? This was but another misrepresentation and cheap shot on saints' character and not a peep out of anybody. Nope - I've had enough - feel foolish for even coming here - my bad - I blame myself.

    Please delete or remove my account from this forum - I cannot with a clear conscience participate in this forum with the view and now attitudes many of you take towards the King James Bible and the modern versions. This forum was my last attempt in participating in online forums. I can now say my forum days are over. Praise the Lord. May God judge us all for this big waste of time where true edification and a search for the truth has been thrown by the wayside because of pride and ignorance - and I include myself here so don't go blow a gasket..2 Tim 2:23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.

    Understand nobody here has personally offended me - this is not just me taking this "personally" - Ya'll, for the most part, have been polite and cordial considering the issue. I'm a big boy - I've been under the gun before on other forums just as much and some even mroe.

    No, this is a matter of conscience.

    Again Mods - please remove or delete my account from this forum.

    I thank the forum for allowing me to post and putting up with me. I can honestly say I've enjoyed my stay and chats with you folks here though I still believe these forums are not the greatest use of one's time. I'm sorry for not stating my case more cleary thus causing confusing and some division or misunderstandings and even possible misrepresentations.

    Good day gentlemen
     
    #12 AVBunyan, Dec 4, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 4, 2006
  13. tinytim

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    I was not going to post after AVBs, but since he misrepresented what I said in another thread I feel the need to clear my name....

    I did not say KJVOs were immature and know it alls...
    This is what I said:

    "
    I was thinking about this today...
    Over the past week I have read comments on here about how Baptists just do things the way they feel is right.

    As Baptists we believe that God illuminates scripture to us.
    I'm not for sure if this fear is just from KJVOs, but from all that feel their views on scripture are being challenged.

    It is a sign of immaturity to always say... "I'm right, and if you don't agree with me, you are not as spiritual as me"

    I have learned a lot after I thought I knew it all!!!"

    As you can see that can be applied to even MV users... And I even included myself.

    We all struggle with pride, and that was what I was aiming at when I posted that here... http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=35529

    When we set ourselves up as experts we will fall. Me included!!!
     
  14. AVBunyan

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    If I misrepresented you then I offer my apologies - I may have overreacted. Please forgive if this be the case. Sometimes it is hard to interpret posts - this is a danger in forums - hard to see the heart.

    Again - my apology.

    God bless
     
  15. tinytim

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    apology accepted... I understand the fact about the forums being hard to interpret some times... I have been guilty of this also.
     
  16. NaasPreacher (C4K)

    NaasPreacher (C4K)
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    Our policy is to let accounts expire by non-use.

    I think we would all say that we are sorry to see you go. You have put forth your point as a Christian gentleman.
     
  17. AVBunyan

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    Thanks C4 - and same to you

    I had a bad morning - I may have overreacted a bit - I hate self :BangHead:

    I will take a break - clear the brain, wash the heart, and re-evaluate.
    There was something I always wanted to try and I still might.

    BTW - what is the lenghth for non-use? Thanks

    God bless
     
    #17 AVBunyan, Dec 4, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 4, 2006
  18. NaasPreacher (C4K)

    NaasPreacher (C4K)
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    I think it as about six months before accounts are deleted.

    Pray about it - consider sticking around.
     
  19. robycop3

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    AV Bunyan:Let's try this one more time -

    1. I mentioned Dr. Hyles out of respect so one wouldn't think I came up with idea on my own - trying to be honest. And all I've heard from you folks is negative towards the man.

    And that's prolly all you're gonna hear on this forum. Not only has he stated that people can be saved only through the KJV; there's a strong allegation that he carried on a sinful affair for a long time. Few, if any here, have any respect for him.

    2. The point I was making was "value" not strength and battle.

    Value as compared to WHAT?

    I've stated this several times. The King James Bible is the gold - your modern versions are brass...at best.

    That's GUESSWORK at best...certainly not TRUE.

    You guys are making a lot out of nothing. You know my point.

    If you knew that, then why bring it up to begin with?

    I think I've had enough - Feel free to think you've got the best of me and whatever else you may want to think or believe.

    i think you're just frustrated because you cannot win over anyone to believing the KJVO myth. Several among us have been there & seen the falsehood of it. Personally, it waved a red flag to me first time it was presented to me, and subsequent honest research showed my how phony this myth is.

    If many of you believe all bibles are the same because the message is basically there then there is nothing more I can do.

    Actually, there's PLENTY you can do...Dig a little deeper into the KJVO concept & see how false it is. Read about its origin...Note its absolute LACK OF SCRIPTURAL SUPPORT...Note the fact that God did supply and still does supply His word in language contemporary for the day...see that the modern myth was started by a SEVENTH DAY ADVENTIST...ask yourself WHY have I believed this stuff when there's not a quark of truth to it.


    You've got one of your "heavy hitters" here that believes saints can loose their salvation!!!....

    That would be ME, and last time I checked, Hebrews 6:4-6 was in every copy of the KJV I own.


    how can he even understand the dangersous doctrinal changes in the modern versions then?

    Easily! I do NOT use private interpretations!


    And tiny tim on another thread makes a general statement alluding to KJV only folks are "know it alls" and this makes us "immature"? This was but another misrepresentation and cheap shot on saints' character and not a peep out of anybody. Nope - I've had enough - feel foolish for even coming here - my bad - I blame myself.

    Please take time to read TT's post CAREFULLY, as well as his rebuttal to your post I'm answering here.

    Please delete or remove my account from this forum - I cannot with a clear conscience participate in this forum with the view and now attitudes many of you take towards the King James Bible and the modern versions.

    Our view is based upon the REALITY of what God has done! YOURS is based upon what you HOPE he mighta done. You have absolutely NO BASIS for supporting the KJVO myth, except by PERSONAL PREFERENCE, and that preference does NOT seem to be the basis for your incorrect view.



    This forum was my last attempt in participating in online forums. I can now say my forum days are over. Praise the Lord. May God judge us all for this big waste of time where true edification and a search for the truth has been thrown by the wayside because of pride and ignorance - and I include myself here so don't go blow a gasket..2 Tim 2:23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.

    I hope ya look at it another way...you have an almost-free means of instantaneously communicating with other Christians almost anywhere on earth. But you shoulda known the KJVO view is quite the MINORITY view now because, thanx to the propaganda of people like Ruckman, Riplinger, and, yes, HYLES, they are learning there's no truth to KJVO.

    Understand nobody here has personally offended me - this is not just me taking this "personally" - Ya'll, for the most part, have been polite and cordial considering the issue. I'm a big boy - I've been under the gun before on other forums just as much and some even mroe.

    Then you should have thick skin. I have been under heavy fire here & there myself, especially for my stand on Hebrews 6:4-6, but I simply keep on keepin' on, long as God permits. I'm NOT afraid to proclaim the TRUTH.

    If you HONESTLY AND COMPLETELY believed the KJVO myth, you'd stay and defend it long as you could. I honestly and completely believe it's FALSE, & will therefore attack it long & often as possible. You must be slowly coming around to the "true lies" of the KJVO myth.

    Remember, you can still use the KJV alone while NOT having the dead bird of the KJVO myth around your neck. Several people here do that, including C4K & Dr. Cassidy.

    No, this is a matter of conscience.

    Why? whaddya believe ya did wrong?

    Again Mods - please remove or delete my account from this forum.

    I thank the forum for allowing me to post and putting up with me. I can honestly say I've enjoyed my stay and chats with you folks here though I still believe these forums are not the greatest use of one's time. I'm sorry for not stating my case more cleary thus causing confusing and some division or misunderstandings and even possible misrepresentations.

    You stated your case quite clearly. Problem is, this is not a readership that's conducive to the KJVO myth. Did it ever occur to you that IT MAY NOT BE TRUE? After all, WHAT EVIDENCE SUPPORTS IT?

    Far as I'm concerned, you're a Christian bro who's been deceived by a man-made false doctrine. Welcome to the club! I was thus myself deceived for awhile by another false doctrine, that of Armstrongism. However, the HOLY SPIRIT opened my eyes by turning me on to the fact that ole Herby believed in Annihilationism, the doctrine that the wicked dead are completely destroyed in gehenna, and don't spend eternity there.

    I hope you stay, and discuss other Christian things besides the KJVO myth. We could all edify each other. But you're simply not gonna get anywhere in most Christian discussions, by nte, phone, or face-to-face if ya continue to hype the KJVO myth.

    In Christ,

    robycop3
     
    #19 robycop3, Dec 4, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 4, 2006
  20. robycop3

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    Hey, WELCOME TO THE HUMAN RACE! Know anyone who aint hadda bad morn sometime? I must say you've been a GENTLEMAN more than I have in trying to state your case. I have dealt with so many KJVOs who are just plain JERKS that I sometimes go into attqck mode automatically.

    However, DO know that I STAND BY MY GUNS on this & on every other Christian board I'm on. Sometimes I can be quite abrasive. But that's just parta being robycop3, and God didn't change that parta my nature.
     
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