Exposed: False Illustrations to ‘Prove’ Doctrine – Part 7

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Protestant, Sep 21, 2013.

  1. Protestant

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    In an effort to outdo his famous hot dog analogy, our relentless well-meaning board member offers yet another fiction conjured up by his free will imagination.

    According to his illustration, if he can predict the outcome of horse races legally, then he, like God, is a miracle worker. If, however, God ‘fixes’ the outcome so that the race results are exactly as He predetermined, then God, like the Mafia, is a fake and a cheat.

    Example # 7:

    “I've already debated with others here, they call my view of foreknowledge "crystal ball theology". They are correct, I believe God can foresee what men will freely choose to do.

    Tell me, which would be more miraculous?

    Let's say we went to the horse races, and I correctly picked the win, place, and show for each race that day. That would be pretty miraculous don't you think?

    But what if you found out I was with organized crime and that each race was fixed to come out just like I had predicted. Would that seem miraculous to you?

    Or would that make me a fake and a cheat?

    I ask you then, is God miraculous, or is he a fake and a cheat?”

    Refutation:

    Once more the board member makes a false equivalency to prove his errant, God-dishonoring doctrine.

    Salvation is not a horse race.

    A horse race is won by works…..the hard work of the horse, owner, trainer and jockey. Pedigree is also paramount.

    Unlike a horse race, salvation is the work of God alone. It is God’s free gift to men…..men of His choosing: the Elect. Salvation is by grace, through faith, both of which are of God alone.

    It is by the counsel of His own free will and good pleasure that the Lord decided, in eternity before men are born, whom He would elect. Pedigree does not enter the equation.

    He begins with a lump of sinful clay. There is nothing in the clay which deserves mercy. Everything in the clay deserves judgment.

    Despite the overwhelming evil predisposition in the clay, God, out of unconditional love and mercy, purposed to re-create some of the clay, calling them vessels of mercy. These vessels He purposed to glorify to the praise of His glorious grace.

    The rest He purposed to leave in their natural sinful, hateful state, calling them vessels of wrath fitted to destruction to the praise of His glorious justice.

    God owes no man gracious mercy. He does, however, owe every man righteous justice. The reprobate will receive the justice of God at the Great White Throne Judgment.

    However, in the case of the Elect, in order to satisfy His justice, the Father sent His willing Son to make atonement for their sins and their sins only. By His sinless sacrifice, Jesus Christ appeased the Father’s wrath, satisfying all the requirements of holy justice. The resurrection of Christ proves this fact.

    In order to infallibly secure the eternal salvation of the Elect, the Father has infallibly purposed the means by which His will of good pleasure is to be executed. This decree of means is called Predestination.

    It is the infallible work of the Spirit to effectually call the Elect to faith and repentance by the Gospel of Jesus Christ preached by humans. It is by faith spiritually and infallibly created in the Elect by God that the Elect are justified. It is the infallible work of the Spirit which infallibly sanctifies and preserves the Elect, who are then infallibly glorified.

    God is neither a cheat, a fake, or a liar.

    He has clearly proclaimed the way of salvation: By grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, according to the Scriptures alone.

    It is the good pleasure of His free will that the Lord fulfills in the Elect all the conditions necessary to salvation.

    This is not ‘fixing’ salvation as do criminals fix horse races.

    This is the nature of ‘grace,’ given by God freely to those of His own choosing, yet owed to none.

    Conclusion:

    Like the early worker in the vineyard who disliked the fact the Lord was too generous with the last vineyard worker, our well-meaning board member dislikes the eternal truth that election is the election of grace, according to the good pleasure of God’s free will, having no respect to anything in man, let alone saving faith which comes only from God.

    “For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory forever. Amen.”
     
  2. Winman

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    The clay does deserve mercy and pity in your view. Who made the clay evil?

    Here is a favorite verse of Calvinism.

    Jer 13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.

    I have seen this verse quoted by Calvinists (and non-Cals) probably dozens of times to prove Total Depravity.

    If that is what this verse is saying (it isn't), then it is giving men the perfect excuse for sin. How can they not sin if they are born with a sinful nature that compels them to sin? Obviously, they can't.

    But here is the BIG question Calvinists (and others) never ask... Who gave the Ethiopian black skin? Who gave the leopard his spots?

    Answer that question honestly and you will quickly realize why this cannot possibly be what this verse is saying.

    In fact, Jeremiah is saying the exact opposite. He is not saying man is born with a sinful nature, he is saying these Jews are being so obstinate to sin, so rebellious that it is almost as if they were born with a sinful nature.

    If Jeremiah were telling these Jews they were born sinners, they could simply answer,

    "Hey Jeremiah, what's your problem? Yeah, we sin, so what? We were born sinners, you said so yourself. So what do you expect from us? You yourself say we are born with a sin nature, so how come you are condemning us for doing the only thing we can possibly do? What? Do you think we could do different?"

    And the thing is, these Jews would be perfectly correct if that is what Jeremiah was saying. But that is not what Jeremiah was saying, in fact, he was saying the exact opposite if anybody gives it serious thought.

    So, once again, Calvinism teaches the EXACT OPPOSITE of what scripture is really saying.

    Next time you read this verse, ask yourself who gave the Ethiopian his dark skin and the leopard his spots.

    It is a very dangerous thing to accuse God of evil.
     
    #2 Winman, Sep 21, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 21, 2013
  3. Winman

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    I would like to know how Protestant knows he is one of the fortunate elect? Did God send an angel to personally tell him he is one of these elect? Is there a list somewhere where one can look to see if they are one of these lucky elect persons? So exactly how does one know they are one of the elect?

    I can imagine Protestant would say he knows he is elect because he has believed, but that proves nothing. You can believe a glass of poison is safe to drink and it will kill you if you drink it. Just because you believe you are one of the elect does not mean it is so. There is such a thing as false belief.

    This is the problem with the false doctrine of Limited Atonement, if it is true (it isn't) then no man can know if he is personally one of the elect. Oh, he can convince himself he is elect, but deep down he cannot truly be certain.

    You cannot have faith in a "maybe".
     
  4. JonC

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    How many of these do you have???

    When you run out let me know and I'll see if I can think of some more...like, perhaps...there once was a Calvinist from Nantucket...

    Seriously, these are illustrations. Examine the theology not the explanation - examine the explanation within context of the debate.
     
  5. Yeshua1

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    there is no "luck" involved in salvation of the sinner by God!

    God chose us to be saved in His own beloved Son, period, and that choicing by Him was based upon Hid Good pleasure, so it was NOT as a result of him seeing me making the right decision, for me being better, more keeping the rules, better acting etc!
     
  6. Winman

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    How do you know God chose you? The scriptures say only a very few will be saved, if Limited Atonement is true, then the overwhelming chance is that you are NOT one of the elect.

    Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

    So, how do you know for certain that you are one of these few fortunate elect?
     
  7. Yeshua1

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    again, not lucky/fortunate, for the Lord himself decided to save me based upon his will and His good pleasure!

    How do i know that I am one of the Elect?

    the holy spirit witnessess and confirms that truth to me, the bible tells me that when the Lord jesus became my saviour and Lord, at that moment passed over from death to life!

    Apostles John and paul BOTH told us that we could know that we are now saved and children of God...

    Do you have that full assurance my friend?

    NOT asking if you are saved, but do you knowand have full assurance that you have been rdeemed forever more?
     
  8. Winman

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    Yes, that is the question I asked you.

    Where did the scriptures say Jesus became YOUR Saviour? You believe in Limited Atonement, you believe Jesus only died for some men, not all, so how do you know you are one of the fortunate people Jesus died for if your view is true?

    Did an angel tell you that you were one of the lucky elect persons Jesus died for? Was there a list of elect persons posted somewhere with your name on it?

    If Jesus did not die for ALL persons, then you have no idea if he died for you. Oh, you can convince yourself that you are one of the elect, but you could simply be self deceived.

    If Jesus did not die for you, it does not matter what you believe. You can believe that a glass of poison is water, and safe to drink, and it will kill you if you drink it. If Jesus did not die for you, your faith is vain.

    Yes, but I am not a Calvinist, and I do not believe in Limited Atonement. I know for a certainty that Jesus died for me, YOU DON'T.

    Amazing, you Calvinists all try to become Arminians whenever someone asks you if you are saved. Now you claim you KNOW Jesus died for you. What a laugh.

    The only way you can know for a certainty that Jesus died for you is if Universal Atonement is true.

    This is the Achilles' Heel of Calvinism.
     
  9. Yeshua1

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    the biblical truth is that REGARDLESS if one holds to cal/arm/non cal/arm theology regarding salvation...

    The Holy spirit does indeed witness to us that we are now chidren of God, that we call upon him as "Abba" now, and that we have passed from death unto life, for jesus is now our saviour and lord!

    And limited atonement actually is the view that gives full assuranxce, for we know that Jesus died personally for ME, in order to have me saved and reconciled back to the father!
     
  10. Winman

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    What do you mean the Holy Spirit witnesses to you? Does the Holy Spirit talk to you with an audible voice and tell you that you are one of the elect? Do you see visions?

    Explain exactly how the Holy Spirit witnesses to you. Lots of folks call God "Father", doesn't mean they are saved.

    And I don't know what you've been drinking, but Limited Atonement cannot possibly give you assurance that you are elect. If Jesus only died for some people, then you cannot possibly know he died for you. :laugh:

    You Calvinists must really believe folks are stupid.
     
    #10 Winman, Sep 23, 2013
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  11. Rippon

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    I know that Calvinists view you as irreverent and flippant.

    All your talk boils down to percentages and luck. You think you are covered because you think Christ died for everyone so your "chance" of actually being one of the elect is greater than the poor Calvinist who,because he believes that Christ died for a particular segment of the human race might not make the "cut" --Pure bunkum.
     
  12. Winman

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    No, I believe that it is possible for me to have saving faith because Jesus in fact died for me. I can depend or rely upon this fact, which is what saving faith is, a dependence or reliance on a fact.

    You cannot have faith in a "maybe". You cannot have faith in an uncertainty. How can you have a faith that can withstand the storms of doubt if Jesus only died for "some" men? You can't.

    Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
    23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
    24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
    25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
    26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
    27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

    If you know Jesus died for you for a certainty, then your faith is founded upon a rock. The rain, the floods, and the wind can beat on it, but it will not fall, because it is founded on a certainty.

    You cannot have faith in a "maybe", this is a house built on the sand. When the storm comes with the rain, the floods, and the wind, this house will surely fall.

    You may not realize it, but Jesus was speaking of the very issue we are discussing right now.

    Note what those unsaved persons claimed in verse 22. They claimed their works, because this is all you have when you do not have a promise. When you do not KNOW you are the elect you must work to attempt to prove to yourself you are saved. This again is the house built on the sand, because when the storm comes, your doubts will prevail and you will fall.

    But when you know for an absolute certainty that Jesus died for you personally, you can place your faith and reliance upon the Word of God, upon Jesus who never lies and never fails. When the storm comes, you lean on Jesus and you will not fall.

    You probably do not even understand what I am talking about.
     
    #12 Winman, Sep 23, 2013
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  13. Rippon

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    I'm in perfect agreement that no one can have faith in a maybe.

    Again, you labor under a false premise. You think that Christ died for each and every person --past present and future. Therefore,in your way of thinking --since everyone is "covered" there is no possibility that you are among the lost.

    But you have also acknowleged that only a portion of humanity will be saved. Your point of refuge is now a hollow shell.

    And my faith is indeed founded upon a rock --Jesus Christ and His finished work on the cross for my salvation --all tenses.

    That's exactly right. Saving faith is not buily on a maybe. One doesn't build their faith on a false premise. Your false basis is that since,in your view He died for each and every --you are among the number and you are covered. But you have also admitted that only a potion of mankind will be saved. So where does that leave you? You are not in a secure spot.You are deceiving yourself.


    On the contrary, the Bible speaks of making one's calling and election sure. (2 Peter 1:10)

    You have the order confused. When I have placed my trust in the confidence that God's Word is true. I will realize that Christ is the one and only perfect sacrifice for my sins.

    Romans 8:16 :"The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are the children of God." The Holy Spirit is a confirming witness that we are the children of God. See Heb. 10:15 that says the Holy Spirit also testifies to us.

    1 John 3:1 : "See what great love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are!"

    Romans 8:1 :"Therefore, there isw now no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus."

    There is no charge that can be laid at the feet of the elect because the Lord intercedes for us. Nothing can separate us from the love of God.

    John says that these things I have written unto you that you may KNOW that you have eternal life.

    There should be no uncertainty or maybe with respect to the assurance of our salvation. The Word and the Spirit confirm that it is true.
     
  14. Winman

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    Good.

    That is your opinion. I believe my premise is correct.

    You are correct, I believe Jesus died for every person who ever lived, 100% of men.

    But you are wrong, many are lost. You must believe on Jesus and receive him as Saviour to be saved.

    I have used the analogy in the past, suppose I bought every member of BB a ticket to the next Super Bowl. I have all the tickets in my possession. I start a thread here and promise that to all that PM me their address, I will mail them their free ticket.

    Those that believe me and PM me will receive a ticket. Those who do not believe me, or simply are not interested and do not PM me will not receive a ticket.

    Does that mean I did not purchase a ticket for every single member of BB? NO. Salvation is the same, Jesus has provided atonement for every man that has ever lived, but we only have access into this grace by faith.

    Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

    No faith, no grace. :thumbs:

    Correct, only those who believe and come to Jesus receive the atonement. But it was purchased for all.

    Not if you believe in Limited Atonement. If you believe Jesus only died for some men, then you have no possible way to know that Jesus died for you. You can tell me all day and night that you know Jesus died for you, and I know better. It is IMPOSSIBLE to know that if Limited Atonement is true.


    Again, I believe my premise is correct. You are the one who thinks he can have assurance in Limited Atonement. That is absolutely impossible.

    If Limited Atonement is true, it would be impossible to make your calling and election sure.

    You do not know if Jesus died for your sins if you believe in Limited Atonement, that is absolutely impossible.

    The scripture says the Spirit bears witness WITH our spirit. Jesus said "my words" are spirit and life.

    The first witness is the Word of God. Paul said that the gospel he preached was "first of all, how that Christ died for our sins" That is the FIRST thing you must know and believe.

    1 Cor 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
    2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
    3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
    4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

    Paul is recalling exactly what he preached to these Corinthians. When he first preached to them, he had no idea who was elect and who was not. He had no idea who would believe and who would not.

    But note, how Paul is stating here "I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you" at the first.

    And what was that gospel? That "Christ died for OUR sins". He did not tell these Corinthians that Jesus died "for his people" as I have heard Calvinist preachers say on several occasions. No, Paul said, "OUR SINS".

    But note that Paul says you must keep this in memory to be saved, unless ye have "believed" in vain. So, you have to believe the gospel.

    Again, it is like the Super Bowl tickets I purchased, you have to believe me and send me your PM to receive your ticket. But I purchased it for you whether you believe me or not.

    Your works cannot assure you if you believe in Limited Atonement. Those persons Jesus rejected in Matthew 7 did "many wonderful works". They prophesied in Jesus's name, they called him "Lord, Lord".

    No, the only way you can have faith in Jesus's death on the cross is if you believe in Universal Atonement.

    You can tell me all day long how confident you are, but I know better. You will fold when the storm comes, guaranteed.
     
    #14 Winman, Sep 23, 2013
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  15. Rippon

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    Christ purchased the Church, and the Church alone with His blood.

    Well,you are denying the truth of all those verses I furnished for you.

    You need some serious time in the Word WM. And most Calvinists don't callit Limited Atonement anyway,Particular Redemption is one of my favorite terms for this glorious trth.


    I have my faith on Christ alone.


    But with God all things are possible. Don't let your tradition and man-made philosophy blind you.
    You can dispense with your silly illustrations.

    Absurd.Tell that to those in Perdition who,in your theory --Christ atoned for their sins.

    Here's another passage for you.It's from 2 Peter 1:10 :"Therefore, my brothers and sisters,make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things,you will nevee stumble."

    You are stumbling over Particular Redeption. First things first. Every saved person is elect. Understand that? If one has placed their faith and trust in the Perfect sacrifice of the perfect Lamb of God for their sins--that person has been pardoned and cleansed of their sins --in saving union with the Lord.

    You need to concentrate on the milk of the Word because you are hung up on things which you have to advance up the ladder for later on. Get the basics down first.
     
  16. Winman

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    He also bought unbelievers, he even bought those who spread damnable heresies.

    2 Pet 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.


    I am doing no such thing, but if you believe in Limited Atonement, then you cannot possibly be sure Jesus died for you.

    Well, many Calvinists do not truly believe in Limited Atonement. Most 4 pointers reject Limited Atonement.


    I'll have to take your word for that.


    God cannot lie.

    I think it is a good illustration that a person can purchase something for everyone, but those who do not believe do not receive it.

    Again, 2 Pet 2:1 shows that Jesus "bought" false teachers.

    Well, the first thing you have to do to assure yourself is depend upon those promises that Jesus died personally for you. If you go about destroying that promise with false doctrine like Limited Atonement you are going to struggle with doubt.

    Fact is, Calvinists struggle with assurance MORE than others. That is a FACT. It is pretty easy to understand why, Limited Atonement.

    https://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2013/05/doubting-calvinists/
     
    #16 Winman, Sep 24, 2013
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  17. steaver

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    This Limited Atonement doctrine is probably one of the most easily refuted by the scriptures out of all of the TULIP. It's clear that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world (1Jo2:2). It is also clear that Jesus gave an exception (Matt12:31). Those in hell are there for one reason only, they refused to believe God's promises found in faith.
     
  18. Yeshua1

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    not hearing of jesus, not knowing the Gospel, even refusing to receiving Jesus is NOT why sinners go to hell, as Its due to us being found in adam, as born already judged and condemned !

    rejection just confirms that we are sinners bent on going our own way!
     
  19. Yeshua1

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    the elect are the only ones that actually can even have trouble with their assurance, as those that God chose to allow to stay in their sins will not have that , as they are quite content in staying in darkness, following own religion and their own rules...

    Those who the death of jesus were intended to save will in hact get saved, there will be none who had the desire/;onging/looking to get saved going to hell, for God will be the One that put that there in them !
     
  20. steaver

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    Ah, there is the ole Calvinistic attitude coming out........they deserve what they get because THEY love their darkness! But I on the other hand got the lucky draw! Praise Jesus! Can't wait for that wrath of God to come down on those unworthy unbelievers!
     

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