Expository note on John 6:37-45

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by The Biblicist, Dec 4, 2014.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,149
    Likes Received:
    207
    I realize this has been a bone of contention for many. However, I don't think anyone can honestly deny that John 6:37-40 clearly teaches that "ALL" whom the Father gives equals "all" who actually come to Christ as there are NONE LOST that are given or that come. Therefore "of all" given "all" come and NONE are lost. That is 100% out of 100% given come and 100% "of all" none are lost.

    This being the case, then "all" coming to the Son by the Father must also equal "all" who actually come to the Son by the drawing of the Father, since none that come are lost.

    Hence, giving and drawing must equally overlap in regard to "of all" who actually come to the Son since none that come are lost thus all who are given must be equally drawn by the Father.

    Since the incarnated coming of Christ is in response to, a consequence of the Father giving such to the Son (v. 38) then such giving precedes the incarnation or else Christ could never say that his coming was for the purpose to secure all those the Father gave to him. However, that is precisely what he does say in verse 38 as the specific will of the Father that he came down from heaven to fulfill was that he would "LOSE NOTHING" of all that were given to him by the Father.

    Therefore, since this giving preceded the incarnation, therefore it necessarily had to precede any of us coming to Christ in time and space since the incarnation precede our earthly existence. Moreover, the future tense "shall" come demonstrates coming is the consequence of first being given, just as the coming of Christ to earth is the consequence "of all" first being given to Christ. In other words, Christ did not come to earth in order that they might be given to him by the Father any more than we come to Christ in order that we might be given to him by the Father. Giving is the stated cause for both the coming of Christ to earth and the coming to Christ in faith.

    Lastly, ALL who come to Christ by drawing of the Father must equal "all" who are given by the Father to come to Christ, since ALL who come NONE shall be lost. If some could come to Christ and be lost then that would contradict verses 37 and 39. So coming is a consequence of both being giving and being drawn by the Father rather than the cause of being giving or being drawn by the Father. The absolute proof of this is that "no man can come to me" EXCEPT the Father first do his work. Thus coming has to be consequential to being first drawn rather than drawing being consequential to first coming.

    Hence, both giving and drawing "is the work of God" in regard to coming to Christ by faith just as Jesus first states in John 6:29. It is the audience of unbelievers that deny coming to faith is the work of God but they claim it is of their own inherent ability (Jh. 6:30,34).

    No one disputes that man has inherent faith but rather the issue is does he have inherent ability to come to Christ by faith. Jesus says "NO man can come to me" without the work of God being the EXCEPTION to that universal rule.

    Moreover, if SOME can be given that do not come then Christ lied in verse 39. Additionally if SOME can be drawn that do not come then Christ lied in verses 63-66 as he gives as the sole reason for remaining in "unbelief" from "the beginning" by "SOME" is that they WERE NEVER DRAWN BY THE FATHER (v. 65).

    Hence, "ALL" in verse 37 and 39 equal "ALL" in verse 45 which equal "ALL" in John 12:32. Thus "all" is contextually defined as "ALL MEN WITHOUT DISTINCTION of race, class or gender" rather than "ALL MEN WITHOUT EXCEPTION FROM ADAM TO LAST HUMAN BORN." It is the very same "ALL" in ALL cases.
     
    #1 The Biblicist, Dec 4, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 4, 2014
  2. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    29,402
    Likes Received:
    12
    Arminian/Semi-Pelagian types will whine if this turns into CALVINISM rather than a simple discussion of John.

    They want every post dealing with the doctrines of grace to be shunted to another forum.

    Keep this thread discussing John 6 and it will stay right here where it belongs.
     
  3. Van

    Van
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    9,516
    Likes Received:
    49
    This thread presents the Calvinist doctrine that to be drawn means to be dragged by compulsion, rather than the attraction of the lovingkindness of God. This fiction is presented over and over. The word translated draw, when used metaphorically means to persuaded by and not all those "drawn" commit fully to Christ. Thus 100% of those drawn are not "given" to Christ.

    Pay no attention to the logical fallacy that drawing means coming, coming means come, come means given, and given means drawn. Words have inherent meanings, and if you stick to them, you will not fall away into error.
     
  4. OldRegular

    OldRegular
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2004
    Messages:
    22,678
    Likes Received:
    53
    That is utterly false! You are simply hung up on the term "Irresistible Grace" of TULIP!

    If you would simply read and believe John 6:37 in conjunction with John 6:44 and John 6:65 a lot of your problems would go away, disappear, vanish.

    John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

    John 6:44. No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

    John 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.


    "Drawing" may not mean "coming" to you but it did to Jesus Christ as verses 6:37 and 6:65 show!
     
  5. Deacon

    Deacon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member
    Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2002
    Messages:
    6,970
    Likes Received:
    128
    John 6:40 (NIV) For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

    John 6:44 (NIV) No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

    John 6:54 (NIV) Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.
     
  6. Benjamin

    Benjamin
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2004
    Messages:
    4,886
    Likes Received:
    112
    [​IMG]


    [​IMG]


    [​IMG]
     
  7. Van

    Van
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    9,516
    Likes Received:
    49
    The logical fallacy goes like this:

    1) You must be drawn to come, 6:44
    2) Thus 100% of those that come, were drawn.
    3) Therefore, 100% of those drawn will be raised up on the last day.

    The logical necessity is as follows:
    1) 100% of those given to Jesus arrive in Jesus because He could not cast out those that were not in.
    2) 100% of those who arrive in Jesus will be raised up on the last day.
    3) 100% of those who arrive in Jesus were drawn by the Father.

    Therefore, of those drawn, only those also given to Jesus arrive in Jesus and will not be cast out but raised up on the last day.
     
  8. Van

    Van
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    9,516
    Likes Received:
    49
    All men means all mankind, not all kinds of elect men. Just another redefinition to pour Calvinism into the text of John 12:32. Note that if all men refers to everyone who beholds that Jesus, high and lifted up, died for them, then 100% of those who understand the gospel message will be saved, according to Calvinism. Verse after verse, passage after passage must be rewritten, all means all here, all the elect there, and so forth. Fiddlesticks.
     
  9. convicted1

    convicted1
    Expand Collapse
    Retired Staff

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2007
    Messages:
    9,011
    Likes Received:
    3
    Vanology 101 at it's finest....


    Punting....
     
  10. OldRegular

    OldRegular
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2004
    Messages:
    22,678
    Likes Received:
    53
    You really could use a lesson in reading comprehension!
     
  11. Van

    Van
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    9,516
    Likes Received:
    49
    Hi OR, I am always looking for ways to improve.

    Therefore, of those drawn, only those also given to Jesus arrive in Jesus and will not be cast out but raised up on the last day.
     
  12. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,149
    Likes Received:
    207
    The problem with this post is that it is exegetically false. There is not a single case where the Greek term translated "draw" is ever used where coming is not a simeltaneous action with being drawn. Coming is the effectual consequence of being drawn in every case. The only case where this may be questioned is where the one drawing does not have sufficient strength to draw. For example when fisherman have too many fish in the net so that the drawer is insufficiently able to draw in the net. However, that inability cannot be said of God and it is God doing the drawing in our text.

    There is not a single case where the power for drawing is found in the one being drawn - NOT ONE CASE. Indeed the one being drawn is PASSIVE in every single case as the power for drawing is found ONLY in the one doing the drawing.

    Finally, no one denies that the drawing in John 6 and 12 is the INTERNAL work of the Father as there is an INTERNAL RESISTANCE to be overcome that "no man can" overcome without the Father performing this internal work of drawing. That internal resistance is spelled out in clear black and white language in such passages as John 3:19-20; Rom. 3:9-18; 8:7-8.

    No one denies this internal work is a LOVING and KIND work of the Father. However, the problem with those who pervert and distort the meaning and usage of this term is that they see nothing INTERNAL within sinners that needs the LOVING KIND power of God to bring the sinner to Christ. However, the very text clearly spells out what is the internal obstacle that drawing overcomes by the words "NO MAN CAN COME" and the word "can" speaks directly of ABILITY (Gr. dunamis) and this INABILITY is not due to the lack of a volitionary function of the soul but is due to the moral resistance of the soul. Drawing lovingly and in great kindness transforms the internal moral obstinance into submissive willingness, as drawing EQUALS coming as it is impossible to draw anything to you that does not come to you at one and the same time. This drawing equals coming is the exegetical fact for every use in scripture.

    I challenge any reader to find one example of the Greek term translated "draw" in John 6:44 where what is being drawn is not effectually coming at the very same instance of being drawn! Don't give me the texts concerning the fisherman as the failure to come in the act of drawing is due to the inability of the one drawing and that cannot possibly be applicable to God.

    So the problem with Van and other detractors is simply a failure to apply proper exegesis. Instead they ignore, pervert and force their ideas upon Biblical language.
     
    #12 The Biblicist, Dec 5, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 5, 2014
  13. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,149
    Likes Received:
    207
    Another falsehood based upon ignoring proper exegesis. In John 6:37, 39 "all" does not mean all human beings without exception and that is obvious to any unbiased interpeter. If "all" is interpreted to mean "all humans without exception" than one would be forced to believe in universal salvation.

    Neither does "all" in John 6:45 mean all humans as Jesus is quoting from Isaiah 54:13 and Jeremiah 31:33-34 ("prophets" plural). Both of these passages have to do ONLY with "all" who are in the NEW COVENANT as Jeremiah 31:34 would again force an honest exegete to embrace UNIVERSAL SALVATION if "all" meant all human beings without exception. In addition, Jer. 31:33-34 is quoted by the writer of Hebrews as descriptive of the NEW covenant (Heb. 8:12-15; 10:15-17).

    The contextual fact that "some" who professed to be disciples of Christ in John 6:63-66 were still in "unbelief" and were so "from the beginning" and the cause of remaining in such "unbelief" is explicitly and clearly said by Christ due to the fact THEY WERE NEVER DRAWN by the Father - Jn. 6:65 "THEREFORE I SAID UNTO YOU".

    Therefore, "all" in the context of drawing cannot possibly mean "all mankind without exception" but only "all mankind without distinction of race, gender or station" and John 12:32 in its proper context proves that as John 12:32 is a direct response by Christ to some NON-JEWS wishing to have a meeting with him (Jn. 12:20-32) when Jews, especially rabbi's or teachers of Judaism were by law to avoid any social contact with such (Mt. 18:17 "unto thee as a heathen" - Acts 10:28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation....).

    Hence, the real issue is the lack of proper exegesis or exegetical honesty (eisegesis).
     
    #13 The Biblicist, Dec 5, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 5, 2014
  14. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    13,379
    Likes Received:
    728
    The discussion is about jn 6:37-44......not jn 12.

    The only bizarre thing in this post is your uncle vantwaddles fables..."arriving "indeed

    :laugh::laugh::laugh:

    What is not funny however is direct contradiction of clear texts explained and opened before you, then rejected by you.
     
    #14 Iconoclast, Dec 5, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 5, 2014
  15. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,149
    Likes Received:
    207
    Notice the complete irrationality of the statement above. Can you believe that someone would even dare to say that "coming" does not mean to "come"??????? That is the kind of irrational thinking that those who oppose the scripture must adopt. Notice also, that van does not dare deal with the evidence I placed before him but completely ignores the contextual evidence altogether! Why? Because he cannot deal with it by HONEST EXEGESIS.

    Let me present the contextual based evidence once more.

    1. In John 6:37-40 ALL who come are EQUAL to ALL who were given. I dare anyone to exegetically prove otherwise.

    2. In Jon 6:37 being given by the Father is the textual CAUSE for "all" coming to the Son as coming is FUTURE TENSE in regard to coming exegetically. And in John 6:38 being given by the Father is the textual CAUSE for Christ coming to earth to redeem this same "all." I dare anyone to exegetically prove otherwise.

    3. In John 6:44 universal inability to come to Christ is clearly stated in the words "NO MAN CAN COME TO ME." He did not say "SOME" can't but "NO MAN CAN." Thus Christ establishes the doctrine of universal inability to come to Christ for salvation. If that is not true then there would be NO NEED FOR AN EXCEPTION CLAUSE that restricts TOTAL ABILITY TO COME by the work of the Father - "except the Father draw him." The term translated draw is always found in the PASSIVE VOICE completely denying that POWER to come to Christ is found with the person being drawn. Again, demanding universal total inability to come to the Father EXCEPT God does the enabling. I dare anyone to exegetically prove otherwise.

    4. Every instance of the Biblical use of the same Greek term translated "draw" in John 6:44 proves that drawing is inseperable and simeltaneous with the action of coming. In other words drawing is always EFFECTUAL as what is draw always comes. The only case where this can be disputed is based wholly upon the INABILITY of the ones drawing but such can never be true of God.I dare anyone to exegetically prove otherwise.

    Don't give us your philsophical blathering but DEAL WITH THE TEXTUAL FACTS. Van can only rant and rave but where is any exegetical contextual based facts to disprove anything I have provided based upon the text being used?????
     
    #15 The Biblicist, Dec 5, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 5, 2014
  16. OldRegular

    OldRegular
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2004
    Messages:
    22,678
    Likes Received:
    53
    Only those given to Jesus Christ by the Father are drawn to Him. All those so given will come to Jesus Christ and be raised up on the last day! The is the very clear teaching of the 3 verses I posted!
     
  17. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,149
    Likes Received:
    207
    The challenge still stands! No takers up to this point.
     
  18. Deacon

    Deacon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member
    Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2002
    Messages:
    6,970
    Likes Received:
    128
    There's just not an adequate way to respond without discussing he who's name is not to be spoken.

    IMO, this thread should have been posted in another forum.

    Rob
     
    #18 Deacon, Dec 5, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 5, 2014
  19. Rippon

    Rippon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    17,404
    Likes Received:
    328
    The above is totally biblical and reasonable --therefore completely inadmissible by the V-man.

    Icon, Biblicist, Convicted1, Dr. Bob are on the mark. The Van-man and Ben are are not good at traget practice --i.e. dealing with the context of John 6:37-45.
     
  20. Jedi Knight

    Jedi Knight
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2009
    Messages:
    4,935
    Likes Received:
    45
    Kinda like when Jesus said "You did not choose me but........."
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

Loading...