Extremely Derogatory to Human Pride

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by KenH, Nov 29, 2002.

  1. KenH

    KenH
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    I am not saying anyone posting here has this problem, but a major objection to Calvinism by a lot of people is the blow it strikes to human pride and achievement. I share the following from Grace Gems -

    Extremely derogatory to human pride!

    (Stephen Tyng, "Christ is All")

    Sin has entirely perverted the nature of man.

    The carnal mind is opposed to God in its . . .
    judgments,
    tastes,
    desires, and
    pursuits.

    God demands that guilty man . . . .
    sacrifice his own imaginary independence,
    renounce his own fancied excellence, and
    acknowledge his personal unworthiness,
    before he can be received into the family of God.

    Such demands seem extremely derogatory to
    human pride. And for this reason, multitudes
    reject all the offers of the Gospel, and treat with
    contempt those who yield to the invitations which
    they themselves despise, and submit to the motives
    which they renounce, as deluded and degraded people.


    Ken

    [ November 29, 2002, 07:49 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]
     
  2. Helen

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    LOL, Ken,

    Let's trade. This is from Oswald Chambers from My Utmost For His Highest. From Nov. 28:

    "Being justified freely by His grace..."
    Romans 3:24

    The Gospel of the grace of God awakens an intense longing in human souls and an equally intense resentment, because the revelation which it brings is not palatable. There is a certain pride in man that will give and give, but t come and accept is another thing. I will give myself in consecration, I will do anything, but d not humiliate me to the level of the most hell-deserving sinner and tell me that all I have to do is to accept the gift of salvation through Jesus Christ.

    We have to realize that we cannot earn or win anything from God; we must either receive it as a gift or do wihtout it. The greatest blessing spiritually is the knowledge that we are destitute...It is only when we get hungry spiritually that we receive the Holy Spirit. The gift of the essential nature of God is made effectual in us by the Holy Spirit; He imparts to us the quickening life of Jesus, which puts 'the beyond' within, and immediately 'the beyond' has come within, it rises up to 'the above,' and we are lifted into the domain where Jesus lives (John 3:5).


    There is no pride at all in the position of the person who accepts Christ, and I think the above helps explain that from a non-Calvinist position quite well.

    So please do not accuse non-Calvinists of espousing pride. You see, we see you Calvinists, rightly or wrongly, in that very light -- for what we see from so many is "I'm saved and you are not, or at least probably not..." attitudes. I remember how shocked I was to read a person here to said that he would tell a person the gospel and then, basically, walk away, figuring he had done his job and the person was either predestined for heaven or not. In other words, there was no caring for the person that I could see, just for the 'righteous act' of the person telling the Gospel. That struck me as horrid then and it still does.

    But it is something I have heard from a number of Calvinists since I started asking around of my Calvinist friends.

    That strikes me as a type of pride...sort of "I'm one of the loved ones, so sorry if you are not."

    I know you accused one person posting here of using emotional arguments against Calvinism, and I thought about your remarks for a long time. And you know something? There is nothing wrong with exposing the emotional shock and pain that is the result of a doctrine when that doctrine is wrong, and that is just what that person was doing. I'm not much for the charismatic, emotional approach, but neither can I say that it is right to ignore the emotional impact of some things.
     
  3. KenH

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    Helen,

    LOL? :confused: I do not see anything funny about human pride.

    I have a copy of My Utmost for His Highest. It is excellent devotional material.

    If you notice, I did not accuse anyone in this forum of espousing pride. But I hope you know as well as I do that human pride is a major impediment to a lot of people coming to Jesus in repentance and faith.

    Maybe you talk to the wrong bunch of Calvinists as the ones I have conversed with and read after and listened to during the past 4.5 years do not exhibit the traits you talk about. Perhaps it is your prejudice against Biblical Calvinism that colors your perceptions?

    I hope this helps. [​IMG]

    Ken
     
  4. Helen

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    Ken, it was one of the men posting here on this forum who originally set me back on my heels with that stuff.

    I am not prejudiced against Calvinism as a presupposition. It is a conclusion, and there is a big difference.

    You stated that a "major objection to Calvinism by a lot of people is the blow it strikes to human pride and achievement," implying that those opposed to Calvinism did not feel this was true of other approaches. I posted to show that was wrong. Pride is absolutely smashed in the need to surrender all to Christ unconditionally.
     
  5. KenH

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    Anyone who understands that he is not worthy of salvation(whether non-Calvinist or Calvinist), regardless of his actions, should not be prideful at all.

    From Grace Gems -

    The others, where are they?

    (Octavius Winslow "Evening Thoughts")

    "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy,
    and I will have compassion on whom I will have
    compassion." Romans 9:15

    Here is the Sovereign! How like Himself He speaks!
    He carries forward His gracious purposes of infinite
    wisdom and love—chooses or rejects—reveals or
    withholds, "working all things after the counsel of
    His own will," and "giving no account," either to
    angels or to men, "of any of His matters."

    Is the reader a child of God? Who and what made
    you to differ? You have been taken out of your family,
    your kindred, your friends, your companions. From this
    circle you alone have been selected, called, and made
    a child of grace, an heir of glory.

    The others, where are they?
    Still dead in trespasses and sin!

    The others, where are they?
    Living in the world, and to the world;
    lovers of pleasure,
    lovers of self,
    lovers of sin,
    hating God,
    rejecting Christ.

    The others, where are they?
    Bursting through every restraint, and bending
    their footsteps down to the doom of the lost!

    The others, where are they?
    Gone, many of them, into eternity; past
    the confines of mercy, "in hell lifting up
    their eyes, being in torments."

    And what are you?
    A sinner saved by grace;
    a sinner chosen and called;
    pardoned and justified;
    washed and clothed;
    adopted and sanctified;
    brought to the foot of the cross;
    constrained to welcome Jesus,
    to take up His cross, and to follow Him.

    Oh the electing love of God!

    Oh the distinguishing grace of Jesus!

    Oh the sovereign operation of the Eternal Spirit!

    Bow down to the sovereignty of His will—silently
    wonder, and adore Him who says, "Be still, and
    know that I am God."

    Oh precious truth!

    It stains the pride of human merit!

    It lays the axe at the root of self!

    It empties and humbles and abases!

    It ascribes all the praise, honor, and
    glory of salvation, to the Triune God!

    "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy,
    and I will have compassion on whom I will have
    compassion." Romans 9:15


    Ken

    [ November 29, 2002, 07:50 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]
     
  6. KenH

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    No, Helen, I implied no such thing. I cannot account for all feelings of all of my theological opponents. I was only referring to those who oppose my relationship to Jesus based on my trusting in Jesus' finished work alone on my behalf. And I hope there is no one in this forum that holds to such opposition.

    I hope this helps. [​IMG]

    Ken
     
  7. Jacob

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    Although I have yet to make a conclusion as to what Scripture as a whole teaches regarding Pre-destination; I have been put off by the pride and attitudes of Calvinist. Not necessary on this board but those who I am personally aquainted with.

    Two solid churches in my area have been greatly hindered by Tulip Calvinists who won't treat Calvinism as a secondary issue. I've heard many of them say "we'll keep fighting for Calvinism in this church and when the fight is over we'll take whatever's left and start a reformed church".

    These people won't participate in any type of joint evangelical efforts because they refuse to fellowship whatsoever with "Arminian man oriented efforts".

    They honestly believe churches are useless (some even say harmful) if a church isn't 5pt Calvinist and therefore, have no problem splitting them.

    They refuse to treat Calvinism as a secondary issue and fellowship with non-Calvinists.

    I admit it is hard for me to make a logically unbiased Biblical decision regarding Calvinist because I hate the fruit and arrogance that seems to result...

    Just my comments from much exposure to Baptist Calvinists.

    Jacob.

    [ November 29, 2002, 08:05 PM: Message edited by: Jacob ]
     
  8. BobRyan

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    The "pattern" has been to quote the Calvinist views on God's "hate" in the Psalms and then ask if that applies to the future scenario where God confesses that He hates your daughter as she suffers in the fires of hell.

    The pattern has been to quote the Calvinist views on God who is above having to really care for and love everyone - and who is perfectly satisfied to select out the few and call that "so loving the World" - and then compare that again to the scenario above regarding loved-ones suffering in hell. Taking actuall doctrines/quotes etc and putting them to the test.

    Now lets "contrast" that approach with the one Ken uses above. He claims to have some quote from the Arminians regarding "human achievement" such that "the objection to Calvinism is that it does not give enough importance to human greatness".

    So - is that really what you found - or are you simply reporting "how you feel" about what you have found in the Arminian views?

    I find it hard to reply to your simply stating that you "feel a certain way" when you read Arminian arguments - if indeed you are not actually claiming to have a quote of the form you stated above.

    So which is it? Do you have a quote?

    In Christ,

    Bob

    [ November 29, 2002, 08:16 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]
     
  9. KenH

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    I have read about those kinds of Calvinists before myself. They are a pathetic bunch. They even have their own website at www.outsidethecamp.org. They are basically theological sectarians. They would consider a thoroughgoing 5-point Calvinist such as myself to be lost.

    Ken

    [ November 29, 2002, 08:22 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]
     
  10. KenH

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    If you actually understood my post to start this thread, Bob, you would realize that the writer is talking about those who are not saved. If you are saved, it is not referring to you.

    I hope this helps. [​IMG]

    Ken

    [ November 29, 2002, 08:28 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]
     
  11. KenH

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    Your statements above are inane, Bob.

    Ken

    [ November 29, 2002, 08:33 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]
     
  12. Helen

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    Are you saying, Ken, that you don't think the daughter of anyone who is saved is going to be in hell? If that is not true, then Bob's statement is far from inane.
     
  13. Jacob

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    Ken, do you consider whether one is a 5Pt Calvinist or an Arminian to be truly a secondary issue? Can you participate with Arminians jointly in programs and events? What do you evangelize more, Calvinism or the simple Gospel message?

    Just wondering...trying to get a feel for the different variances of Calvinism.

    Jacob.

    [ November 29, 2002, 08:50 PM: Message edited by: Jacob ]
     
  14. KenH

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    Thanks for the questions, Jacob.

    1. Yes.

    2. Yes.

    3. I believe that Calvinism accurately describes the gospel message. Therefore, I see no difference between evangelizing the simple gospel message and Calvinism.

    I hope this helps. [​IMG]

    Ken
     
  15. KenH

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    Helen,

    It's the slurs that Bob constantly words his posts with that lead to describing his efforts as inane. His points could be made without the slurs and then they would be worth discussing.

    I hope this helps. [​IMG]

    Ken
     
  16. Helen

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    If he has good points, then ignore the slurs and discuss the points. I have brought up the same point from another angle time and again, also without response: my take on it is that it is impossible for a mother to love a child more than God loves the child. We love because He first loved us. How could we then love so dearly what He might hate? The Holy Spirit in us is not schizophrenic!

    It's the same argument at the core of it. Calvinism seems to ignore the fact that even pagans seem to have a greater sense of compassion and love than God as Calvinism presents Him. (Please notice I did not insult you folks by saying 'your God' as was done in a title to a thread that was never even contested here -- and I found that very interesting).

    If Calvinism is true, we have an interesting quandry where heaven is concerned. Are those who are saved via predestination apart from any choice of their own stricken with mass amnesia? Do they suddenly forget all the people they ever knew and loved on earth who are not also saved? Or do they remember and simply not care about them anymore? Or do they see them in torment? I see no godly way out with any possible choice here -- no way in keeping with the character of God.
     
  17. KenH

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    Helen,

    If non-Calvinism is true, we have an interesting quandry where heaven is concerned. Are those who are saved via their own free will stricken with mass amnesia? Do they suddenly forget all the people they ever knew and loved on earth who are not also saved? Or do they remember and simply not care about them anymore? Or do they see them in torment? I see no godly way out with any possible choice here -- no way in keeping with the character of God.

    You see, it boomerangs on you. [​IMG]

    I hope this helps. [​IMG]

    Ken
     
  18. KenH

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    A slur by any other name, Helen, a slur by any other name. [​IMG]

    Ken
     
  19. KenH

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    Because I am human and I tend to mess up and play down to the same level as my opponent(to use a sports analogy). [​IMG]

    Ken
     
  20. KenH

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    You can bump it back up to the top if you desire. I don't recall it.

    Ken
     

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