Ezekiel 18 Falling away and become wicked

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Kay, Aug 30, 2007.

  1. Kay

    Kay
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    Ezekiel 18 Does that not mean you can fall away and become wicked?

    Ezekiel 18
    The Soul Who Sins Will Die
    1 The word of the LORD came to me: 2 "What do you people mean by quoting this proverb about the land of Israel:
    " 'The fathers eat sour grapes,
    and the children's teeth are set on edge'?

    3 "As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, you will no longer quote this proverb in Israel. 4 For every living soul belongs to me, the father as well as the son—both alike belong to me. The soul who sins is the one who will die.

    5 "Suppose there is a righteous man
    who does what is just and right.

    6 He does not eat at the mountain shrines
    or look to the idols of the house of Israel.
    He does not defile his neighbor's wife
    or lie with a woman during her period.

    7 He does not oppress anyone,
    but returns what he took in pledge for a loan.
    He does not commit robbery
    but gives his food to the hungry
    and provides clothing for the naked.

    8 He does not lend at usury
    or take excessive interest. [a]
    He withholds his hand from doing wrong
    and judges fairly between man and man.

    9 He follows my decrees
    and faithfully keeps my laws.
    That man is righteous;
    he will surely live,
    declares the Sovereign LORD.

    10 "Suppose he has a violent son, who sheds blood or does any of these other things 11 (though the father has done none of them):
    "He eats at the mountain shrines.
    He defiles his neighbor's wife.

    12 He oppresses the poor and needy.
    He commits robbery.
    He does not return what he took in pledge.
    He looks to the idols.
    He does detestable things.

    13 He lends at usury and takes excessive interest.
    Will such a man live? He will not! Because he has done all these detestable things, he will surely be put to death and his blood will be on his own head.

    14 "But suppose this son has a son who sees all the sins his father commits, and though he sees them, he does not do such things:

    15 "He does not eat at the mountain shrines
    or look to the idols of the house of Israel.
    He does not defile his neighbor's wife.

    16 He does not oppress anyone
    or require a pledge for a loan.
    He does not commit robbery
    but gives his food to the hungry
    and provides clothing for the naked.

    17 He withholds his hand from sin [c]
    and takes no usury or excessive interest.
    He keeps my laws and follows my decrees.
    He will not die for his father's sin; he will surely live. 18 But his father will die for his own sin, because he practiced extortion, robbed his brother and did what was wrong among his people.

    19 "Yet you ask, 'Why does the son not share the guilt of his father?' Since the son has done what is just and right and has been careful to keep all my decrees, he will surely live. 20 The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him.

    21 "But if a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die. 22 None of the offenses he has committed will be remembered against him. Because of the righteous things he has done, he will live. 23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?

    24 "But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.

    25 "Yet you say, 'The way of the Lord is not just.' Hear, O house of Israel: Is my way unjust? Is it not your ways that are unjust? 26 If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin, he will die for it; because of the sin he has committed he will die. 27 But if a wicked man turns away from the wickedness he has committed and does what is just and right, he will save his life. 28 Because he considers all the offenses he has committed and turns away from them, he will surely live; he will not die. 29 Yet the house of Israel says, 'The way of the Lord is not just.' Are my ways unjust, O house of Israel? Is it not your ways that are unjust?

    30 "Therefore, O house of Israel, I will judge you, each one according to his ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. 31 Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!
     
  2. Kay

    Kay
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    My second question would be. If salvation is a gift you can not lose it but can you give it back? If someone gives me a gift I can return it?
    Looking forward to the responses on these two questions.
     
  3. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: Certainly you can. That ability is within your God given powers.

    If someone loves you, and you love that person, is it impossible to spurn that love at a future time? Let me ask you this. Is love possible where there is no choice to do something other than what one does? Are two possibilities necessary for love to exist, either to act in accordance to love, or act in accordance to selfishness?
     
  4. Kay

    Kay
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    Don't you think the : Ezekiel 18 passage shows you can go from righteous to wicked?
     
  5. BobRyan

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    True - just like Matt 18 "Forgiveness revoked".

    Just like john 15 with the branches that are abiding IN Christ -- that then are REMOVED (severed) from Christ,

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  6. BobRyan

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    Yes - it shows that point clearly.

    When one clings to OSAS they do so "in spite of Ezek 18" not "because of it".

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  7. standingfirminChrist

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    This is not speaking of a saved man in verse 24. It is not speaking of one who has put on the righteousness of Christ. How do I know? Why, two of the earliest verses I learned as a child:
    Now, if a man could lose his Salvation, then there would be a contradiction between John 3:16; 5:24 and Ezekiel 18:24. :
    There are no contradictions in the Word of God. Jesus Himself promised that the one who believes in Him shall not see condemnation. Can Jesus lie? No, for we know Him to be Truth. John 14:6.

    So then, what do we say about the man in Ezekial 18:24?

    This man is lost. He is not clothed in God's righteousness. He is clothed in his own righteousness. Appearing righteous before men. He trusts in his own righteousness and then finds because he is not clothed in true righteousness he finds himself given in to wickedness. He is revealed to not have placed his faith in the Lord, but in himself.

    Paul taught in the book of Romans that even though he was saved, he found himself giving in to sin when he wrote:

    But Paul knew even though he gave in to sin at times, He was saved; sealed by that Holy Spirit of promise (Eph. 4:13)

    One last thought...

    If Paul received his doctrine from Jesus Christ,
    would not he have told us we could lose our Salvation if that were possibe? But he did not teach that. He taught quite the opposite:
    Our Salvation is secured by the Lord Jesus Christ Himself. Do not let anyone cause you to walk in fear; afraid of the least little sin causing you to be cast out of heaven. God is not the author of fear, but of peace and of love and of a sound mind.


    Now, don't get me wrong. Salvation is not a license to sin. Romans 6:1,2 is clear on this.

    If one who professes to be of God and continues in the same sin day in and day out, that one probably has only made a lip profession and not a heart profession and is not saved.

     
  8. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: What is the meaning of the phrase “should not?” Does it mean that it is impossible to perish?


    HP: Here again you have chosen to base your conclusions on a text that happens to be in accordance to the outcome you desire. You are not even attempting to harmonize it with many other texts that have been posted numerous times that set forth the clear possibility that one can indeed turn from their righteous, commit iniquity, and die in their sins.

    Do not overlook the Chapter we have been discussing in Galatians chapter 5. Here it clearly teaches that if we act in accordance to the flesh, doing the things expressly forbidden by God’s law to man, we indeed place ourselves, believer or sinner alike, under the condemnation of the law. Only as we ‘walk in the Spirit are we free from the law.
    Ga 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
    17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
    18 But IF ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
    19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
    20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
    21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

    Salvation has clear conditions, thought of in the sense of ‘not without which,’ that stand ready to modify John 5:24 or any other passage that sets forth our hope. Certainly we have been given eternal life. Certainly there is nothing that needs to deter from our receiving a full inheritance, but the warnings of Scripture stand firm, ‘take heed lest ye fall.’ Even Paul, the shining example of holiness, saw the need for constant watchfulness and continued obedience. 1Co 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.


    24 "But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.

    HP: There are simply two types of individuals, the righteous and the unrighteous. Jesus siad, 'ye are for me or against me.' The righteous entertain a hope of eternal life, the unrighteous entertain a hope of eternal damnation. If this verse is not speaking of a saved individual, it must of necessity speaks of an unsaved, unrighteous man. Are you suggesting that the unrighteous are referred to as a ‘righteous man’ in this verse? The verse is comparing the righteous to the wicked.
     
  9. standingfirminChrist

    standingfirminChrist
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    There are those who have a form of godliness (righteous) but deny the power.

    Jesus said the Believer 'shall not come into condemnation'. That is a promise you can take to the bank.

    One cannot lose one's Salvation.
     
  10. standingfirminChrist

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    One can not gat saved and then get unsaved when one sins, and then get saved again over and over. If it were possible to be unsaved after being saved, then the blood of Christ was not sufficient. His death on the cross was in vain.

    He promised eternal life to the believer at the time of belief.

    From the time of believing, the Believer is sealed with that Holy Spirit of Promise. Sealed to the day of Redemption. You cannot break that seal, I cannot break that seal.

    The question arises...

    Did the professing one truly believe? Was it a heart belief? or just lip profession?

    God knows the heart.
     
  11. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: That is not what this text says and you know it. It says ‘righteous,’ not ‘one that has a form of righteousness.’ You are adding to the text words that are not even hinted at in any way. Those that have a form of righteousness are simply classed with the wicked. They are deceived.

    Why do you avoid simple questions? I asked you the meaning of the words ‘should not.’ Any ideas?
     
  12. Cutter

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    Amen, Brother!
     
  13. standingfirminChrist

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    HP,

    You can preach a message putting people into fear again unto bondage if you wish, but it is against God's nature to revoke the gift of eternal life.



    I will continue to preach the truth as it is written in God's Word.
     
  14. standingfirminChrist

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    Man, before coming to Christ is righteous in his own ways whether you want to beleive that or not, HP. If it were not true, Isaiah would not have written that 'our righteousness is as filthy rags before the Lord'.

    The psalmist would not have written twice, 'There is a way that seemeth right unto a man'.

    Man can be righteous in his own eyes. The man in Ezekiel 18 was.
     
  15. standingfirminChrist

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    HP, have you sinned since you got saved?
     
  16. standingfirminChrist

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    Heb 6:4-6. This passage refers to false professors of Christ. How do I know?
    (1) Those in the passage tasted of but they did not drink

    and eat (see Joh 6:54).
    (2) Those who fall away cannot be saved again. This shows the oversight of those who teach that a believer can lose his salvation; because they never tell the backslidden that they have no chance of returning to the Lord, but rather they encourage those who allegedly lose their salvation to return to Christ and seek forgiveness.
    (3) The difference between the true believer and the false

    is the fruit and the evidence (v. 7,8).
    (4) Paul clearly states that he is not referring to true believers , “we are persuaded better things of you and things that accompany salvation.” (v. 9).


    Seeing Paul received his revelation of Christ and not from man, I will believe what Paul wrote.

    In light of Paul’s writings, the man of Ezekiel 18:24 cannot have been clothed in any righteousness but his own. The man was unsaved.
     
  17. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: Absolutely, and more than once. God was gracious and allowed me time to repent. I fulfilled the condition He mandates for a sure hope of eternal life by repenting and turned from the sin, and my relationship was restored.
     
  18. standingfirminChrist

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    If your theology that one can lose one's salvation was correct, there would be no chance of that person getting saved all over again.

    What do you think is the time to repent? I do not find that in the Word. I see where if it were possible to lose your salvation, it would be impossible to renew you back to repentance. Are you rewriting as you go along?
     
  19. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: Heb. 6:4 does not say anything about true believers not being able to fall away according to your own words. You said “This passage refers to false professors of Christ.” Therefore, it has nothing to do with the reality of true believers being able to forfeit their salvation now does it? The ‘impossibility’ lies with the unbelieve being restored again, according to your words, not mine.




    HP: Not according to the passage in Hebrews if you are correct in assuming, as you stated, that verse 4 was not addressing a believer at all. If verse 4 does not address a believer, this whole passage is not applicable to any believer not being able to be restored having fallen. It is talking about those that have not been saved. If you are going to make a case about a believer not being able to be restored, you are going to have to find a passage where a believer is addressed.
     
  20. standingfirminChrist

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    Notice I said 'if your theology was true?'
     

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