Faith Alone...

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by PhishPhan47, Dec 16, 2005.

  1. PhishPhan47

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    If we are saved by faith alone and nothing else, do we need to forgive others? If we don't forgive others, are we forgive? If we are not forgiven, can we attain heaven?

    If we are saved by faith alone and nothing else, do we need to love? Is faith more important or greater than love?
     
  2. Doubting Thomas

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    Well, Christ said if we didn't forgive others then God wouldn't forgive us. Now, of course, all the sola fide/OSASites will counter that Christ was probably just somehow referring to our "rewards", rather than actual forgiveness/salvation, since OSAS for them is a given.

    I seem to recall the Apostle Paul saying WTTE that "the greatest of these is love". He also wrote that the only thing that avails is "faith working through love" (Gal 5:6).
     
  3. BobRyan

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    " by faith alone" is found only once in the Bible. Guess where.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  4. Frogman

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    Jas 2:17 (KJV) Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. {alone: Gr. by itself}
     
  5. riverm

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    Has PhishPhan47 been banned?
     
  6. Charles Meadows

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    If love is the only important thing then Jesus could have stayed in heaven. We are saved by our faith in Jesus - nothing else. The indwelling of the Spirit produced Christian love in us.
     
  7. Claudia_T

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    If you want to talk about "the elect" or those who are "chosen" ..Jesus told a story and at the end of the whole thing He said "For many are called, but few are chosen." -indicating that you could tell the difference between those who are chosen and those who are not, just by reading this story:

    Matthew 22:
    1: And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said,
    2: The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
    3: And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
    4: Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.
    5: But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:
    6: And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.
    7: But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.
    8: Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.
    9: Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
    10: So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.
    11: And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
    12: And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
    13: Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
    14: For many are called, but few are chosen.


    ..as you can see, those who are forgiven by God but then go back and are unmerciful to others, God throws them right back into the unforgiven state and under condemnation.


    also read these statements about justification and what qualifies us in recieving mercy from God...

    Lk:18:13: And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

    Lk:6:36: Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.

    Mt:5:7: Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.

    Then of course there is the Lord's Prayer:

    Lk:11:4: And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.


    Man is naturally cold and unloving; and if someone manifests mercy, he does it not of himself, but through the influence of the Holy Spirit moving upon his heart.

    "We love, because He first loved us." 1 John 4:19


    God Himself doesnt want to punish us, but to redeem us. And we are completely undeserving of His forgiveness. We could never do anything to deserve it.


    But if we have ourselves truly received the love and forgiveness and mercy of God, then this will be shown to be a part of us... not something kept on the outside to be merely experienced by us but to actually become part of us.

    God has given to His children "the ministry of reconciliation" and if we do not show compassion on others this is proof positive that we ourselves have not truly partaken of the nature of Christ.
    2Pt:1:4: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

    Recall the story Jesus told of the sheep and the goats and how that ends. It is the story of judgment.


    To the goats He will say

    Matthew 25:

    40: And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
    41: Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
    42: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
    43: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
    44: Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
    45: Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
    46: And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


    The merciful "shall obtain mercy."

    "The soul of blessing shall be made fat: and he that watereth shall be watered also himself." Proverbs 11:25

    "Blessed is he that considereth the poor. . . . The Lord will preserve him, and keep him alive; and he shall be blessed upon the earth: and Thou wilt not deliver him unto the will of his enemies. The Lord will strengthen him upon the bed of languishing: Thou wilt make all his bed in his sickness." Psalm 41:1-3.


    The Lord will not fail him in the hour of suffering and need. In the hour of final need the merciful shall find refuge in the mercy of the compassionate Saviour and shall be received into everlasting habitations.

    It is the principle of "Do not be deceived, we shall reap what we sow"... that is true, in so many ways.


    Claudia
     
  8. Claudia_T

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    oops! I meant to put on there the story of the guy who the King forgave and then let him out of prison

    Matthew 18:
    21: Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
    22: Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.
    23: Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
    24: And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
    25: But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
    26: The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
    27: Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
    28: But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
    29: And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
    30: And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
    31: So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
    32: Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
    33: Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
    34: And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
    35: So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.
     
  9. Claudia_T

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    I just wanted to add that I think that Christians get the entire thing about faith and works confused because they dont understand that they are supposed to be doing the good works for reasons other than to "get merit" or work their way to heaven... both of which are an impossibility to begin with.

    This is the attitude that we are supposed to have when we obey God:

    Lk:17:10: So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

    ...and if you dont have that attitude you wont be in heaven.


    What is love? If you will read Romans 13:8-10 you will see that love is merely the summary of the ten commandments.

    Romans 13:
    8: Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
    9: For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
    10: Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.


    and if we do not have love, we will not be in heaven, we will not obtain eternal life:

    1Jn:3:15: Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

    Its just that simple. So to claim "faith alone" is just not Biblical at all.

    How much clearer can the Bible be by telling us that if we dont have love, or keep the law... "love thy neighbor" (the last 6 commandments) and love God (the first 4 commandments)... then we do not have eternal life abiding in us.

    1Jn:3:14: We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

    1Jn:3:10: In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

    Do you really think a child of Satan is going to be allowed into Heaven?

    Can you love your brother if you kill him, commit adultery, steal from him, or break any of the commandments?


    Who has God prepared Heaven for? is it for those who hate God?

    1Cor:2:9: But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

    Can you love God if you worship idols, disregard the Sabbath, take His name in vain?


    Can you love God if you hate your brother?

    1Jn:4:20: If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?


    We just have to have a little bit of common sense and really think about what the Bible is telling us. Dont just ignore Bible verses you dont like... and gather together all the verses about grace. If you do that you will come away with a very distorted and untrue picture.


    Claudia
     
  10. BobRyan

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    I agree that "Faith" and "Alone" are found there - but in James 2 there is the exact phrase "by Faith alone" if found uniquely!

    As far as I know this is the only place in scripture where "by faith alone" is found.

    Anybody know of another place?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  11. Doubting Thomas

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    As far as I know this is the only place in scripture where "by faith alone" is found.

    Anybody know of another place?

    In Christ,

    Bob </font>[/QUOTE]Not me. You are correct, sir.
     
  12. Matt Black

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    Apparently, though, according to some here, it is "thundered from the Scriptures". So you'd better get your umbrella out...
     
  13. Pastor Larry

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    You are mistaking the absence of exact words for the absence of doctrine. Based on your standard, there is no doctrine of hte Trinity since the exact words cannot be found in Scripture. And I could list many other doctrines that fall by the way by such means.

    The doctrine of salvation by faith alone is explicity in Scripture.

    The question of hte OP deals with how people who are saved live. Love and forgiveness are characteristics of those who have been saved. If you are saved, you will live certain ways. That is the point of James 2.
     
  14. jesusrocks

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    Galatians 5:6 "For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love ."

    James' epistle, which is so often used to defend works (as it rightly should), is expressing true--living faith. Faith without works is a dead faith-- a nonexpressive (or non-lived out) faith. And what could is faith unexpressed? Faith unexpressed is weak and half-hearted... it bears no fruit. Faith without works is a superficial faith that seeks to be saved at no cost. However, salvation came at a cost-- a very high one: the life of Christ culminated in His passion, death, and resurrection. Yes, it is by the grace that flows from the side of the crucified Christ that we are saved. And in that grace we trust and put our faith... a faith which we express by taking up our own crosses and following after Jesus, seeking imitation of Him.

    HOWEVER, I find it somewhat disheartening that faith itself is sometimes looked at as a "work"... something that we must conjure up of ourselves--we ought to pat ourselves on the back for having faith-- "Yay us"... but lest we forget... faith itself is a grace from God, which we must humble ourselves to ask of God. We can be sure that God will grant it, that much is true... but then we have to also ask/remind ourselves of its cost.

    ... The fullest embrace of the Cross is the giving of one's life (as Jesus did on the Cross). The cost of faith demands the life of Christ, yet paradoxically, it also demands our own.


    Matthew 10:39 "He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it."

    Mark 8:34-35 "And He called to Him the multitude with His disciples, and said to them, "If any man would come after Me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow Me. For whoever would save his life will lose it; and whoever loses his life for My sake and the gospel's will save it."

    Luke 9:23-24 "And He said to all, "If any man would come after Me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow Me. For whoever would save his life will lose it; and whoever loses his life for My sake, he will save it."

    John 12:25-26 "He who loves his life loses it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life. If any one serves Me, he must follow Me; and where I am, there shall My servant be also; if anyone serves Me, the Father will honor him."


    I know a lot of people who get bent out of shape over a crucifix (Jesus on a cross), but... in all honesty, it preaches "Christ crucified" (1 Corinthians 1:23). The Christian life demands Christ, but it also demands the Cross.


    So yes, we are saved by living faith (faith working through love). But let us also remember that faith itself is a grace... a grace which flows (as all grace does) from the side of He who was crucified for our sins on the Cross at Calvary.
     
  15. riverm

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    But doesn’t James 2:24 specially state that You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone Looks to me James is denying that justification is from faith alone…
     
  16. Rev. Lowery

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    our works show we have faith and by faith we recieve grace and by grace we are saved.

    Ephesians 2:8-9


    Rev. Jerry D. Lowery D.D.
     
  17. jesusrocks

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    and that, would not be faith "alone"

    Faith alone is a oxymoron. Faith does not come alone, but comes with other virtues and graces that enable the Christian to draw more closely to the Father through Christ and the Holy Spirit.
     
  18. billwald

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    "If we are saved by faith alone and nothing else, do we need to forgive others?"

    Major premise: faith alone
    Minor premise: need to forgive?
    Conclusion: no
     
  19. Pastor Larry

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    You have to recognize what question James is answering. He is not answering the question, "Does faith alone save?" He is answering the question, "What kind of faith saves?" That is a key distinction and gives us the answer.

    James answer is that saving faith results in obedience. Faith that doesn't result in obedience doesn't save.

    Here is an article that will give you a good perspective of what James is actually talking about: http://dbts.edu/dbts/journals/1997/Jas2.pdf
     
  20. Doubting Thomas

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    James 2:24 specifically states that one is justified by works and not by faith alone. In other words, Scripture explicitly rules out "sola fide". That, plus the absence of any statement saying we are justified by faith alone (which if present would indeed be contradictory with the James passage), should be enough to show that "sola fide" is not biblical.
     

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