Faith; Before or after salvation?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by convicted1, Aug 17, 2007.

  1. convicted1

    convicted1
    Expand Collapse
    Retired Staff

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2007
    Messages:
    9,011
    Likes Received:
    3
    I hope this hasn't been beaten to death already, but I want everybody's opinion on when they believe faith begins. Is it before or after salvation. I pray that this doesn't turn into a C/A debate, so please be civil with your responses.

    Please give scriptures to support your "beliefs". May God bless you all!!

    Willis Fletcher, Jr.
     
  2. Jkdbuck76

    Jkdbuck76
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2007
    Messages:
    2,263
    Likes Received:
    64
    Willis, that's about like loading a pound of candy bars in right pants pocket, a pound of raw meat in your left pants pocket, laying down on the ground in a forest in the Pacific NW and saying "I sure hope the bears leave me alone"
    A/C debate this will be......

    But seriously, people I'd suggest you make a definition right-quick about what you mean when you say "faith" and "salvation"......yes, it's like trying to define water and air, but you'd better put out a working definition.
     
  3. Mr.M

    Mr.M
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2007
    Messages:
    290
    Likes Received:
    0
    "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved."

    Believe and you will be saved. Believe....and you will be saved. Believe and....you will be saved.

    1. Believe
    2. You will be saved.

    :thumbs: However, as you will discover, the simple will become the hangman for many.
     
  4. Andy T.

    Andy T.
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2005
    Messages:
    3,147
    Likes Received:
    0
    Faith comes before justification.
     
  5. Jkdbuck76

    Jkdbuck76
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2007
    Messages:
    2,263
    Likes Received:
    64
    Is justification = to salvation?


    I'm not arguing....I'm asking.

    BTW, I'm in Cincy. Nice to see another Buckeye here. :thumbs:
     
  6. Andy T.

    Andy T.
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2005
    Messages:
    3,147
    Likes Received:
    0
    Oh yes, verses:

    Acts 16:31
    Rom. 3:28
    Eph. 2:8-9
    Rom. 4:9
    Gal. 2:16

    Many, many others, too.
     
  7. Andy T.

    Andy T.
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2005
    Messages:
    3,147
    Likes Received:
    0
    Justification is the technical, biblical term for what we commonly call "saved". So in a generic way, it is fine to refer to our justification also as our salvation. But salvation can and does refer to things other than justification - like sanctification and glorification. The whole package can be referred to as our salvation. But it is important to distinguish between justification and sanctification, for instance.

    Yes, sorry to say this, but I am a Michigan fan. Sorry about that. ;)
     
  8. convicted1

    convicted1
    Expand Collapse
    Retired Staff

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2007
    Messages:
    9,011
    Likes Received:
    3
    RE: Faith before or after salvation?

    I have always believed that you have to have faith before you can be saved. Jesus said that except you believe that I am He, you shall die in your sins, and where I am, ye can not come. You must believe that God is, and that God is a rewarder to those that diligently seek Him.

    I believe that "belief" and "faith" are interchangeable. If you don't have faith in something, you won't believe it. If you don't believe in something, you can't have faith in it, either. You can't have one, without the other, IMO.

    I am not a believer in the MK, so I don't put faith into ANY of the "theologies" of it.
    Conversersly, if I believed in it, I would have faith in the "theologies" of it. See my point here, fellars?

    If you don't have faith that God can, and did save you, you aren't saved...plain and simple...but this could be a strawman being setup to be "smacked" around. LOL!!!
     
  9. ReformedBaptist

    ReformedBaptist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2007
    Messages:
    4,894
    Likes Received:
    27
    So, do you believe faith comes before salvation or the other way around?


    just kidding
     
  10. donnA

    donnA
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2000
    Messages:
    23,354
    Likes Received:
    0
    Faith comed from the indwelling Holy Spirit. Dead in our sins we aren't capable of faith, it's the free gift of God, given through theHoly SPirit.
     
  11. Mr.M

    Mr.M
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2007
    Messages:
    290
    Likes Received:
    0
    "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved."

    Believe and you will be saved. Believe....and you will be saved. Believe and....you will be saved.

    1. Believe
    2. You will be saved.

    :thumbs:However, as you will discover, the simple will become the hangman for many.
     
  12. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    May 13, 2005
    Messages:
    12,723
    Likes Received:
    0
    It is "through faith" that you get Salvation. How could it come after?
     
  13. ReformedBaptist

    ReformedBaptist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2007
    Messages:
    4,894
    Likes Received:
    27
    Is the proper, or what is meant, in the question really,

    Does faith precede regeneration? Or visa versa, Does regeneration precede faith?
     
  14. Mr.M

    Mr.M
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2007
    Messages:
    290
    Likes Received:
    0
    Please allow me to help you, here is what the poster asked:

    "I want everybody's opinion on when they believe faith begins. Is it before or after salvation." I believe it is pretty clear what the poster asked. Does faith come before salvation?
    And of course my response again is:

    "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved."

    Believe and you will be saved. Believe....and you will be saved. Believe and....you will be saved.

    1. Believe
    2. You will be saved.

    :thumbs: However, as you will discover, the simple will become the hangman for many.
     
  15. ReformedBaptist

    ReformedBaptist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2007
    Messages:
    4,894
    Likes Received:
    27
    I am afraid that did not help me, but thank you for trying. :) The reason it is unhelpful is because the term salvation is very broad to me. It includes regeneration, justification, sanctification, and glorification. To use our word "saved" I would say, "I was saved, I am being saved, and I will be saved."

    So, I am asking if the author intended by using the word "salvation" to mean regeneration. But if he does not answer, I will share a comment or two regarding faith preceding, or not, regeneration.
     
  16. Mr.M

    Mr.M
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2007
    Messages:
    290
    Likes Received:
    0
    Oh okay. But hey, for the record in the Bible a man asked, "What must I do to be saved?" and the response from Paul and Silas was "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved". The OP asked does belief come before salvation. Here you have the most excellent passage in the Bible to deal with this most basic/elementary question.

    So as you can see, Paul and Silas instructed the man that before he can be saved he must believe.

    1. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ
    2. And thou shalt be saved.

    Believe...and thou shalt be saved. Believing in Paul and Silas' instruction precedes being saved. It cannot be any clearer than that.
     
  17. ReformedBaptist

    ReformedBaptist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2007
    Messages:
    4,894
    Likes Received:
    27
    Ok Mr.M,

    And I agree with what you have written here because I agree with the Word of God which says, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved. I believe this, and still believe regeneration precedes faith, or probably happens simultaneously.
     
  18. ReformedBaptist

    ReformedBaptist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2007
    Messages:
    4,894
    Likes Received:
    27
    I think I know what your looking for in an answer here. I say, and I believe it is the Scripture that teaches, that regeneration necessarily precedes conversion. Or as you asked, we are saved and believe.

    I use the word regeneration and conversion on purpose. Regeneration means being born again. Conversion means repentance and faith in Christ Jesus. So, I say again, Regenereation necessarily precedes conversion.

    There are several texts of Scripture that answer this question.

    1 John 2:29
    If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

    1 John 3:29
    Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

    1 John 4:7
    Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

    1 John 5:1
    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.


    Now, the verb "born" is in the perfect tense showing that this action precedes the other actions, that of practicing righteousness, not committing sin, loving, and believing. (see resource)

    I am sure we would all agree that the practicing of righteousness, loving the brethren, and not committing (habitual) sin, are things that follow, or come after being born again. The same is said of "whosoever believeth.."

    It was the Lord who opened Lydia's heart so that she "attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul." Acts 16:14.

    Jesus taught, "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." John 6:37 It those whom the Father draws/gives to the Son that shall (not might/maybe/or possibly) come and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

    Let us not get too hung up on timing. It may that the things happen simultaneously, but certainly not before. In this way no glory can be given to man, but all glory to God. Amen.

    RB

    resource: http://www.9marks.org/CC/article/0,,PTID314526|CHID598016|CIID1731702,00.html
     
    #18 ReformedBaptist, Aug 17, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 17, 2007
  19. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    May 13, 2005
    Messages:
    12,723
    Likes Received:
    0
    what does regeneration entail?
     
  20. ReformedBaptist

    ReformedBaptist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2007
    Messages:
    4,894
    Likes Received:
    27
    Hey my brother,

    Regeneration is being born again. Titus 3:5 "But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost. Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour. That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life."


    The new birth, I am sure we all agree, is the work of God. We are born of God of God, and not of the will of man, or the will of the flesh. John 1:12-13

    The Scripture declares that it is God who causes us to be born again. "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead," 1 Peter 1:3

    In the above resource, Dr. Schreiner points out also, "The means God uses to grant such new life is the gospel, for believers “have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God” (1 Pet 1:23; cf. Jas 1:18).

    I have used his logic before as well. Just as we could do nothing to cause ourselves to be born the first time, we do nothing to cause ourselves to be born again. This is the operation of the Lord, as it is written, "The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit." John 3:8
     

Share This Page

Loading...