Faith or logic

Will you first let me know which scriptures I can use? I think one thing that is evident in Acts is that the Jews knew what the scriptures said. Before you or I could even have a 'logical' discussion, reasoning from the scriptures, we would have to agree on what the scriptures said.

I imagine many scriptural arguments have already been put forward in many threads, but the standard response usually goes something like this : 'It doesn't say KJV. Show me where it says KJV. Where does it say KJV. See, it never says KJV.'

I don't care to discuss the issue here, but in talking with my wife about whether a woman should wear pants or not, the same 'reasoning' is involved. 'It doesn't say pants. Where does it say pants? You cant show me pants.' This is the underlying pretext for disobeying another doctrine, which is the extremely provable doctrine of submission.

I would rather debate some meatier issues with you C4, but if we can't agree on what the word of God says, we can't 'reason together.' If I say the Word in this verse means this, and you say how can it mean this, my bible says this, there can be no real discussion. If you doubt me, go back and read through all 8 pages of the now closed 'Is Hell the same as the Lake of Fire?' thread. 8 pages of having to defend the KJV translation of gehenna as hell, before you can even talk about doctrine.

A quick search shows me that we are told four times in the epistles to be of one mind.

2 Corinthians 13:11
Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you.

Philippians 1:27
Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;

Philippians 2:2
Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.

1 Peter 3:8
Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous:

How can we be of one mind if we cannot agree what the bible says, let alone what it means?

 

Let's be clear. We all agree that logic is a tool. Nobody says logic saves. Jesus saves. Salvation is by grace through faith. What we dispute is the notion that faith and logic are at odds or are exclusive concepts.

Logic is a method of sound reasoning. Reasoning is not logic. Logic is the method by which we reason. Reasoning is understanding. Faith is not intended to replace logic or reason. Reason/logic is not intended to replace faith. They are meant to work TOGETHER.

The GROUND of logic is God. Logic is only as good as the user and the premises from which it reasons. Faith has the same exact flaw. Faith can be in the wrong object. Likewise faith can be in the right object but be completely illogical, but we contend that is only because the person understanding is not complete. Eg. faith in God and miracles is GOOD and RIGHT. However, if we say that miracles are not logical, then we're on shaky ground, because if miracles are not logical, they might not be real, and if they aren't real, then the Word of God is a lie and our faith is really in a lie. However, if they are logical, they are most likely real, and if that is so, then God's Word is true, and our faith is true. Since we can use reason (as I and others have shown) to reason the veracity of God's existence and God's Word, we can verify our faith. The whole of Christian Apologetics and orthodox, evangelical Christian theology is built on faith and logic, not in opposition, but intertwined with each other.

We can not reject the use of logic. To have faith, we must hear the gospel. We must KNOW something in order to believe something. Unless I have some sort of understanding that God exists, for example, I can not believe. Faith can not exist apart from knowledge. Knowledge is a function of the mind, and therefore requires some degree of logic. It is therefore undeniable that faith and logic are not mutually exclusive if I am a theist, because in order to say I believe in God, I must know something about God, namely that He exists, and that comes to me through the mind, and logic of some sort is required for me to have knowledge. Any statement of faith is supposed to be logical not illogical. This isn't to say, "I believe in Jesus because the Bible says so" is necessarily valid, because it is circular reasoning," The faith is right, eg., I believe in Jesus," but the logic is WRONG. However, I can say, I believe in Jesus because the Bible says so, and the Bible is God's Word..." and eventually come to a logical conclusion regarding theism. My statement is thus logical ultimately because theism is logical and I can logically reason (e.g. soundly reason), the validity of the Scriptures and make a personal statement of faith on that basis. Thus, I enhance my statement of faith, which was good and right, with correct, sound reasoning using the Scriptures AND just plain historiographical analysis and good old fashioned reason. That's the way faith and logic are supposed to work and the way that Scripture, as I read it and study it, portray the way it is to function in the life of the believer.


The problem with KJVO is that this simply can not be done.

My logic may be imperfect, or my faith may be in vain, though my reasons logical, but faith in God, we maintain is always logical (see the reasons in other posts). However faith in what is illogical must be in vain because God is a God of logic not illogic (See previous posts).

However, when we can't arrive at our conclusion without using some sort of logically self-defeating premise or logical fallacy and we compound that with no Scriptural support for our doctrine/belief, and we further compound that by inventing evidence or insisting our position is sensible but without reasonable support, we safely say that our "faith" is not faith in God, because this particular kind of reasoning can not be of God.

 

James, don't you think the verses you quoted tell us that the first thing to do is to 'reason together'? Whether we ever totally agree on anything or not is not as important as 'being of one mind' in our respect and love for one another, and our desire to edify and grow together in the Lord.

 

uh, that was my reason

 

For James...

2Cor 13:11 (NIV) Finally, brothers, good-by. Aim for perfection, listen to my appeal, be of one mind, live in peace. And the God of love and peace will be with you.

Philippians 1:27 (NIV) Whatever happens, conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ. Then, whether I come and see you or only hear about you in my absence, I will know that you stand firm in one spirit, contending as one man for the faith of the gospel

Philippians 2:2 (NIV) then make my joy complete by being like-minded having the same love, being one in spirit and purpose

I Peter 3:8 (NIV) Finally, all of you, live in harmony with one another; be sympathetic, love as brothers, be compassionate and humble.

I think they pretty much say the same thing, James. So, how would it be differing in conversation if C4K decided to use the NIV instead of the KJV???

 

Go and read the thread I mentioned in my post, and you will see how it is different. I'll be going to bed now, but I look forward to a response from C4 tomorrow.

 

And I believe this was the original request.

not this:

 

Knowing what I know from the study of God's character in the Bible, yes they are totally logical. One would expect God to be able to back up His words with deeds and He has.

 

I have already given you one reason from scripture why we should support one version. Paul told us to be of one mind. Seeing how we cannot agree on what God said, maybe you can reason with scriptures how we can be of one mind without one bible?

 

I thought you wanted to reason with the scriptures. What you really want to do, like I said in my post earlier, is say 'where does it say KJV? It doesn't say KJV.'

If you can show from scripture how we can be of one mind without believing the same thing, please do. Or show me that I am wrong in saying we should be of one mind. Or something.

 

I double posted

 

OH, I see.

 

Poor James. Kicked out of the sandbox again. Just be sweet and pay your dues brother. This is a tough clique to get in to and an easy one to get kicked out of. A soft answer turneth away wrath but sometimes it heaps coals of fire on a person's head. They'll get over it!

lacy

 

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No KJVOnlyist can reason from Scripture or scholarship correctly. They're "faith" can not be in God, because they assume the truth of their own belief in they're version of the Bible rather than anything that Bible says about itself. Nobody says the KJV is not God's Word; nor do we reject the proposition that God preserves His Word. What we dispute is the ONLY part of the doctrine that asserts that His Word is only preserved in the KJV. There is NOTHING in Scripture to support that notion, nor can it be proven by logic alone, nor does it make the best sense of all the available evidence. Therefore, we submit that the faith of the KJVOnlyist is in God only in a secondary sense. It is grounded in their own experience, their own irrationality, their own selves first, and that, is by definition, dependence on human reasoning over faith.

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First of all, the KJVonlyists that you all have called us, do not believe that God would only provide one translation. What the KJVonlyists BELIEVE is that the modern versions of today have ALTERED the true words of God - the scriptures, and this BELIEF comes from none other than understanding the scriptures themselves. Abundant evidence has been provided, to which many ignore, or excuse away. Therefore, one can scripturally and LOGICALLY conclude, that as of today, the KJB is the ONLY ACCURATE, RELIABLE words of God perfectly in our English language.


Many here are also claiming that they prove all things and reason with the scriptures as the scriptures so say. However this is untrue. Not ONE mv advocate has EVER used the scriptures to reason that the KJVonlyist is wrong, or believing false doctrine, or that it is a dangerous belief, or that God has given his approval for alterations in His perfect words. God's words, or the scriptures tell us quite clearly that we should not add to, nor take away from his words of truth. And indeed, if scriptures are HIS WORDS OF TRUTH then there will not be any room for error or alterations (additions/deletions/changes). Many here however, are very quick to give their REASON for their belief with the words of, and opinions of MEN - the KJB translators, as if the KJB translators opinions and words were the scriptures. God NEVER said what the translators had said. This is putting the words and opinions of men, above that of what the scriptures tell us in regards to themselves.

God's words of truth - the scriptures, do not HAVE A LABEL attached to them. The scriptures, or the words of truth in their ENTIRETY can be and are found in the English language in the KJB. Which edition do you ask? ALL OF THEM. They are all the same. Unlike the modern versions to which Paul warns us that many have corrupted the word of God.

By the way, LOGIC is contrary to FAITH. The two are not the same. Faith is something that is GIVEN TO US BY GOD HIMSELF. To use LOGIC in believing God, is by our own merrit and efforts, and will ulitametly keep us in or lead to unbelief, as the natural man is in rejection and rebellion against God, and is spiritually undiscerned. My faith in Jesus Christ and the cross is illogical to the natural man, as so says the Lord:

1 Cor. 1

19. For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
20. Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21. For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
22. For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23. But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24. But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
25. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26. For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27. But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28. And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29. That no flesh should glory in his presence.
30. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
31. That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.


My faith that God has provided us the scriptures perfectly is not only supported with scriptural truth, but my understanding regarding this comes from FAITH in these scriptural truths, that ONLY can come from God, and not my OWN human reasoning and logic. If we approach understanding the scriptures and the truth they reveal, with human reasoning and logic, we will not see the truth. It must be by faith - unquestioning BELIEF. Take a look at Hebrews 11. I cannot have this, unless God giveth it to me first. God must first give me the faith to believe the scriptures are the truth. Take a look at what Jesus said to the Scribes:

Mark 2

1. And again he entered into Capernaum, after some days; and it was noised that he was in the house.
2. And straightway many were gathered together, insomuch that there was no room to receive them, no, not so much as about the door: and he preached the word unto them.
3. And they come unto him, bringing one sick of the palsy, which was borne of four.
4. And when they could not come nigh unto him for the press, they uncovered the roof where he was: and when they had broken it up, they let down the bed wherein the sick of the palsy lay.
5. When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.
6. But there were certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts,
7. Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?
8. And immediately when Jesus perceived in his spirit that they so reasoned within themselves, he said unto them, Why reason ye these things in your hearts?
9. Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk?
10. But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,)
11. I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy bed, and go thy way into thine house.
12. And immediately he arose, took up the bed, and went forth before them all; insomuch that they were all amazed, and glorified God, saying, We never saw it on this fashion.


Therefore, knowing that God has given and provided the scriptures to us, and many other faithful believers in generations past, is most definately a MIRACLE of God that cannot be explained, NOR understood by HUMAN REASONING AND LOGIC.



love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

I see that michelle is back to her old tricks of denegrating another persons faith and use of another translation of the Word of God. How pitiful. Michelle, posting of long sections of scripture can be done by us, too. Sorry, deary, but it just doesn't support one version onlyism.
Faith involves logic, however much you hate to admit it. To even reason involves logic. God is a God who expects faith, but He also expects us to use our brains. You are still talking in circles and that is a true shame. May God forgive you for being so blind.