Faith Re-Visited for the ???? time

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by GordonSlocum, Feb 20, 2007.

  1. GordonSlocum

    GordonSlocum
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    We all know Eph 2:8 and 9 So lets spare eachother the quoting of it. Ain't any of us going to change our mind, but if you want to be correct believe like I do.

    Now that we got that out of the way, here is the deal.

    The following verses are found in I Cor. They are different. What I would like is a healthy decussion but it would be nice to stay as far away form endliss quotes of others.

    Fine a small short one but not endless paragraps of Tom, Dick and Harrys view on the subject. You do your own work and if you must quote limit it to a one or two sintenses.

    I Cor 2:5. that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.

    I Cor 15:14. And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is vain and your faith is also vain. 15. Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up if in fact the dead do not rise.
    16. For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen. 17. And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins!
     
    #1 GordonSlocum, Feb 20, 2007
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  2. russell55

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    Well, first off, I'm not sure anyone here believes that faith in the wrong things is a gift from God. Trusting in the wrong things is the natural human condition, but trust in Christ alone for salvation is the supernatural gift. Trust in Christ does not come naturally to us, but is a work of the Spirit.

    I don't think the texts you are quoting address where faith in Christ comes from.
     
  3. npetreley

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    Can you count on your fingers how many times people have tried this argument? Are those YOUR fingers? Did you decide to get them of your own free will?
     
  4. GordonSlocum

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    How about the Second Person Personal Pronoun "your".[/COLOR
     
    #4 GordonSlocum, Feb 20, 2007
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  5. GordonSlocum

    GordonSlocum
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    Hi, Npetreley,

    How about some substance pro or con, what do you think!!!!!
     
  6. GordonSlocum

    GordonSlocum
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    I Cor. 2:5 QUESTION - Does this passage address where faith comes form?

    Yes​

    How do you know? The Bible tells me so. Prove it. OK, I will do that.

    Ha postis humoon is the Greek

    translated The Faith of YOU. You who? The You of the text. OK

    But​

    The word You is "Of YOU" It is as stated above Second person personal pronoun Plural.

    So the source of the Faith of the plural you is the ones Paul is addressing. Also, in that they are believers we can include ourselves - and that is the practical application of the correct interpretation of the text.
     
  7. russell55

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    And faith in Christ is our faith. It belongs to us. But it didn't originate with us and it was a gift.

    Those two ideas are compatible, and perfectly compatible. If you recieve a gift, doesn't that gift belong to you?
     
  8. GordonSlocum

    GordonSlocum
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    I understand your view. BUT you can not prove it. We all know Eph 2:8 and 9 and none of us are going to budge on that.

    So if you will look carefully at the passages I quoted above you will notice that Paul makes some interesting statements on the believing faith they have. He attributes it to them as their faith.

    If this so called "gift of faith" that does not exist in the Bible unto salvation is spoken of here in your thinking and it is a gift that God infused into a person then how is it that such a special faith can be abused in the mind of Paul as He addresses the content related to the verses at hand.

    (1) you can't prove your position
    (2) I have a bunch of proof my view is correct and yours is incorrect.
     
  9. russell55

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    Yes.



    "Of you" is a possessive. It is tells us who something belongs to. It doesn't necessarily tell us where it came from.
     
  10. GordonSlocum

    GordonSlocum
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    No you are wrong it is not possessive. If it were possessive it would be spelled as follows:

    IDION not HUMON

    Again the HUMON is exactly "Second Person Personal Pronoun Plural"


    I Cor 2:5. that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.

    This verse is a HUGE HAMMER SLAMMER to the "unbiblical view that faith unto salvation" is a special gift given or infused into a pre-selected being whereby they are then enabled to trust in Christ.

    Think about it. If this mistaken view were correct then Paul is now saying it can be used to believe in human wisdom.

    But and a very big but. The very fact that "your faith" is a personal pronoun is sufficient proof to settle the issue for more than one eternity. On top of that Jesus affirms it, and Paul repeatedly affirms it.
     
    #10 GordonSlocum, Feb 20, 2007
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  11. GordonSlocum

    GordonSlocum
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    Oh, I forgot, "the where it came form" is imphatic too.

    You talk about impahticness - it is just that - very imphatic

    How do you know? I love it when you ask.

    Here it is: It is in the Genitive / Ablitive Case "of or from" Need I say more.
    __________________
     
  12. GordonSlocum

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    Here is the wrong interpretation of this verse, dramatized, so to speak.
    I Cor 2:5. that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.

    OK, Now Mr. or Mrs. human being, in that I picked you in eternity past to believe and now that it is your turn to live in my creation I have given you a special gift of faith so that you will believe after I save you first.

    Now that I have regenerated you and infused you with my special gift of faith:thumbs: you are to believe in Christ for the real deal “Salvation in Christ”.

    Now don't get out there before you believe in Christ and believe in the wisdom of man and forget to be saved. Just be sure you mind me.:rolleyes: It sure would make me look bad if you use this special gift to believe in the wisdom of man instead of the power of God, that’s Me by the way. Do you understand Mr. or Mrs. Human? :thumbs:

    Yes? But aren’t we supposed to have free will? :confused: Don’t start that you are sounding like an Arminian and We did not sign on to that plan.

    Having a little fun here: Truthfully, however, the text is the Word of God and is says what it says. The faith these people have Paul indicates that it could be used to have faith in the wisdom of man or the power of God. The source of "faith" in these verses is clearly from the "you".
     
    #12 GordonSlocum, Feb 20, 2007
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  13. Andy T.

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    I Cor. 2:1-5 (NKJV):

    1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, did not come with excellence of speech or of wisdom declaring to you the testimony of God. 2 For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified. 3 I was with you in weakness, in fear, and in much trembling. 4 And my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, 5 that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.


    What I gather Paul is saying here to the Corinthian converts is that they were saved by the power of God alone and not through any kind of cult-of-personality on Paul's behalf. Paul is saying that his preaching was the unadulterated Gospel and was not the wisdom of man (which is no Gospel at all). And because his preaching was the Gospel and Gospel alone, they did not believe in vain. Their faith was real because it was faith in the Real Thing - Jesus Christ and Him crucified.
     
  14. russell55

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    Don't disagree with that.

    First of all, I would never say saving faith in Christ is "infused into a person." It's the natural result of God's work, but it isn't "infused". It grows up from the seed of the word of God falling on God-tilled soil.

    Secondly, are you seriously going to argue that faith in Christ is not a gift from God. Is faith in Christ a good thing? Isn't every good thing a gift to us from God?

    If faith isn't a gift from God, why does Paul thank God for the faith of the church?

    Those are just two examples of several where Paul thanks God because someone (or someones) has faith in Christ. Why thank God that they have faith if their faith doesn't come from Him?

    Paul also thanks God for positive responses to the gospel message:
    If that positive response did not have it's source in God, why thank him for it?

    We may disagree on how it is exactly that the faith of the believer came to be, but surely we don't disagree that it is a gift from God, right?

    Here's how I believe the faith in Christ that a believer has came to him or her. From 2 Corinthians 4:

    Of the unbeliever:
    But of the believers:
    The same sort of creative word of God that caused light to shine out of darkness at the beginning of time works in the hearts of those who believe to give them "the glorious knowledge of God in the face of Christ.

    Faith is a matter of the heart--our hearts--and so it is "our faith" and faith that comes from our hearts. Yet it is caused the creative word of God shining in our hearts.
     
  15. GordonSlocum

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    I would agree, but the implication that it could have been is there in the statement. The "faith" spoken of that was exercised to believe in the power of God resulted because of Paul's clear message, but verse 5 suggest that it could have been in the wisdom of men.

    The point is that Paul recognizes that the "faith" these people had in the power of God could have been in the wisdom of men.

    I don't disagree with what you said, but I think you miss understood the point I was emphasizing.

    The same "faith of you" could have been in the wisdom of men rather than the power of God" That is what it says.

    Drawing from that the conclusion is that the faith that is textually and grammatically correct is from or of the "you" not from God or a special gift from God. This same faith that was or can be exercised in the power of God could have been exercised in the wisdom of men. That is what Paul is saying.
     
  16. Andy T.

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    No, their faith could only have been in the wisdom of men if Paul had preached a false Gospel. He didn't; he preached the true Gospel and they were saved by grace through faith. Now, most likely there were people who heard him preach at Corinth that were not saved. They probably said, "I don't believe that message preached by Paul." It could be said of these unconverted that they had faith in the wisdom of men - i.e., they were their own gods and followed their own wisdom and did not believe. But their 'wisdom' had nothing to do with Paul's preaching.

    These verses are saying that because God used me (Paul) as an instrument to preach the Gospel in the power of the Spirit, your saving faith is true and not in vain. To those whom he is writing (i.e., the truly converted), it could be no other way.
     
    #16 Andy T., Feb 20, 2007
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  17. russell55

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    As far as I know, no one uses the word "infused" but you. No one thinks God has a little "faith package" that he plops into the heart of the unbeliever, so that they believe; or that he has a hose full of "faith" that he pumps into their hearts so that--ta da!--they have faith.The faith in Christ comes from the heart of the one believing. It grows out of the heart. But it grows as a result of the work of God in the heart, and that's why we can say it is a gift from God.

    Uhmm...this verse is not talking specifically about what these people believed in, or what was the object of their faith. The context is talking about the methods Paul used when he preached, and, in keeping with that, what their faith was based on, or what it resulted from. His preaching and the results of his preaching weren't a demonstration of human wisdom, but rather a demonstration of the power of the Spirit, and so these people's faith wasn't based on (or didn't come out of) the human wisdom of Paul, but it was based on (or came out of) the Spirit's power working through him. They hadn't believed because Paul was eloquent--because he wasn't--but because the Spirit was working powerfully through him and his ineloquent message.
    Settle what? It seems that you're settling a strawman argument in the first place. No one says our faith isn't our faith. No one says it doesn't come from our hearts. It just grows in our hearts as a result of God's work.
     
    #17 russell55, Feb 20, 2007
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  18. GordonSlocum

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    Why do you think I am disagreeing with what Paul said?

    I am not disagreeing.

    What I am saying is what it says: "5. so that your faith would not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God."

    You and I agree that the faith they had was in the power of God because of the previous verses outlined by Paul.

    However, take that away and the first part of verse five is true.

    Do we agree on that?
     
  19. Andy T.

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    You can't divorce verse 5 from verses 1-4. In fact, verse 5 is just the final phrase of one sentence that begins in v. 4.
     
  20. GordonSlocum

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    4. and my message and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power,
    5. so that your faith would not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God.

    If Paul's words were not in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, their faith would be in the wisdom of men.

    This was a real possibility.

    If it were not a real possibility Paul would not have addressed it.

    There are two real possibilities and Paul draws their attention to it.

    (1) The possibility that their faith would rest on the wisdom of men exist
    (2) The possibility that for it not to was based upon Paul's message which was a demonstration of the Spirit and of power.
     

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