Faith vs Logic II

Where in this passage does it say that this faith comes from the words of the Lord and nothing else, nothing evidenced? Surely you're not denying the general revelation of creation, are you?

We can know that the world was created by the God speaking it into existence just by looking at creation itself. There is evidence of the unseen from what we see. Paul says so in Romans 1.

 

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Pretend, michelle, that there's an atheist here and that they don't believe God exists. Walk us through how you would show them that God exists. However, here's the caveat. You can't use the Bible.

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My husband is an atheist, so I do not have to pretend and am quite aware of what they believe, and how they think, and I every opportunity I get, share the SCRIPTURES with him, because the word of God is the SEED that is sown, as the scriptures reveal:

Luke 8

1. And it came to pass afterward, that he went throughout every city and village, preaching and shewing the glad tidings of the kingdom of God: and the twelve were with him,
2. And certain women, which had been healed of evil spirits and infirmities, Mary called Magdalene, out of whom went seven devils,
3. And Joanna the wife of Chuza Herod's steward, and Susanna, and many others, which ministered unto him of their substance.
4. And when much people were gathered together, and were come to him out of every city, he spake by a parable:
5. A sower went out to sow his seed: and as he sowed, some fell by the way side; and it was trodden down, and the fowls of the air devoured it.
6. And some fell upon a rock; and as soon as it was sprung up, it withered away, because it lacked moisture.
7. And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprang up with it, and choked it.
8. And other fell on good ground, and sprang up, and bare fruit an hundredfold. And when he had said these things, he cried, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
9. And his disciples asked him, saying, What might this parable be?
10. And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.
11. Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
12. Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
13. They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
14. And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.
15. But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.
16. No man, when he hath lighted a candle, covereth it with a vessel, or putteth it under a bed; but setteth it on a candlestick, that they which enter in may see the light.
17. For nothing is secret, that shall not be made manifest; neither any thing hid, that shall not be known and come abroad.
18. Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have.


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You can't use the Bible.
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God says differently. God says that I must use the Bible, as the above scriptures indicate, along with MANY others.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle


Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

Left only with the natural reason/logic that God blessed all men with and the things we can sense around us, man is without excuse.

Romans1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Michelle, this passage condemns men who suppress the truth... in contradiction to logic and reason, not faith. In fact, it is a false faith that causes them to suppress logic and reason.

 

Michelle says "You are the one claiming I am wrong."

Gene says "Michelle, you are also claiming I am wrong."

Michelle says that I have not given any Scriptures that support my beliefs.

Gene says, "Michelle, I have provided Scriptures from Romans 1 and I Corinthians 15." Others here have provided other examples, as they also did in the parent thread.

Michelle says we are lazy in our exposition. Yet Michelle provides no exposition at all. She just cuts and pastes and says that it supports her position. Scott J did an excellent discourse on this very topic. Michelle in turn simply retreats into claiming the rest of us are persecuting her and trying to turn this into a KJV vs. KJVO thread.

Michelle says we are saying her faith is wrong...specifically she aims this one at me.

Michelle, I specifically have written in this thread and the parent thread that faith is good and right, etc. I went out of my way to say that you can have faith without logic and logic without faith. I even said that logic can be misused in an ungodly manner. However, faith can also be misused, even if it is in the right thing. Like I said, if the resurrection isn't real, then our faith is misplaced. If the Bible isn't real and true our faith is misplaced.

That's the point, michelle, If those are not real concrete truths, then your faith and my faith is not real at all. Logic underlies those truths, because, for example, the resurrection is a real, historical event, not something somebody made up. It could be that somebody made it up and it's all a lie. That's what Paul is defending against in 1 Corinthians. He is defending against a belief Jesus did not bodily rise from the dead. He says that if it did not happen, we are doomed above all men, because we preach the truth of that and all that we believe stems from it.

Michelle, if it really happened, then we can use reason and logic to show it happened, even if the only testimony is the Bible. We can use our reason to show the Bible is worth believing. That's what Christian Apologetics is all about.

My challenge is still open to you, michelle, Pretend that there is an atheist here and wanting to discuss God's existence without using the Bible? Yes or no, can it be done? Simply answer that question, michelle? If it can, then how? If it can't then why?

 

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I have faith in what the Bible says about everything it speaks to... including itself. There is absolutely no contradiction to logic in my position.
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You must be having trouble reading/understanding what people have posted. I have made it quite clear my belief in this, and where it has come from. Please read again, and stop making every thread into a KJVO vs. MV's. This is what I have said concerning this topic of FAITH VS. LOGIC:


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Michelle quoted:

The problem concerning this issue is when many use their OWN LOGIC AND HUMAN REASONING outside of and contrary to the logic and reason of the truth in the scriptures. Our logic and wisdom comes from God through our FAITH IN HIS WORDS OF TRUTH. Anything outside of this is of our own logic and wisdom.
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and .....

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Michelle quoted:

Where in God's word does he tell us to use "logic" or logical answers to people who question God outside of scripture? How does God say we are to provide answers to unbelievers for our FAITH? Does He tell us to use our own logic or words? Or does he tell us to preach the word (God's logic and wisdom)?
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love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

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I am addressing a false dichotomy that you have attempted to employ to justify a position that fails to meet the requirements of logic/reason.

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As has been confirmed that true logic comes from and only from God in the scriptures, your above quote is indicating that I must use logic/reason outside of this, to which is not true logic/reason, as it is not directly from the scriptures themselves, but would only be based upon my own convicitions/feelings reasonings of evidences outside that of the scriptures themselves. What you are proposing is actually the true false dichotomy that you falsely claim that I am guilty of, when in fact it is you who is guilty of this.


Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

She hasn't been able to show it in the KJV, let alone outside. Because, as we all know, its not there.

The long lists of clip and paste verses are very logical as far as I am concerned. Are they not logical to her?

Do we abandon logic?

Why would God give us multiple witnesses of His gospel if He didn't expect us to come to the logical opinion that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. He could have just written one simple paragraph explaining it, but would people believe it? No, He expects us to use our God given brain to logically arrive at our conclusion that God is the only logical reason for the universe to exist.

 

Have you ever considered he might not be an atheist if you'd use somthing other than the Bible with him. Maybe he's not listening because he doesn't believe the Bible is God's Word. Maybe he thinks it's all just manmade nonsense.

God does not say that we are limited to the Scriptures with regard to apologetics. Nobody here is saying we should not use the Scriptures. I am simply challenging you to do so. If the truth is true, you should be able to do it successfully. I showed in the first post on the last page how logic supports faith and faith supports logic. Yet you claim I am somehow wrong in that assertion. If it can't be done, then I should not have been able to do it. If it can't be done, then Christian Apologetes like Josh McDowell, Matt Slick, and Norman Geisler are just wasting their time. Moreover, they're work is wrong. After all, if logic and reason are always contrary to faith, then what can be logically reasoned apart from Scripture will always be untrue, including concepts like the historical reliability of the Bible and the resurrection of Jesus and, therefore, His Lordship...all of which we believe by faith and all of which have been shown to be logically true apart from simply "having faith."

C'mon, be a sport, michelle. Here, I'll even give you a wonderful resource: www.carm.org . Take a look, michelle, read my friend Matt's website very carefully and come back here and tell me that logic and reason are exclusionary concepts and that we can't use logic and reason to support our faith.

NOBODY has said that your faith is "wrong." We contend that your claim that faith and logic are mutually exclusive is wrong. You have yet to show us that your contention is right.

 

By your own definition, your beliefs about Bible versions are of your own logic and wisdom. That is what I have been saying for several posts now.

You have not had faith in His Word of Truth. You have instead decided that He didn't go far enough and presumed to speak on His behalf some further knowledge on the topic.

You have never cited a single passage of scripture that places any special significance on the KJV translation whatsoever.

 

See Michelle, your post about my assumption was wrong.

What are we guilty of? In your eyes we are guilty of not understanding that the KJV is the only Word of God. That's what you are saying, and don't try to say that you are not, because you are using the faith/logic to point out our falacies of exactly "what is" the Word of God.

If you say that I am assuming, you are sadly mistaken, because THAT is your agenda. Otherwise, if you believed that the NASB was the Word of God, we wouldn't be having this debate with you.

 

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Answer my question, Michelle! How do you show an atheist that does not believe the Bible is God's Word, much less that God exists that it is reasonable that God exists and that the Bible is God's Word.
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God doesn't tell me EVER to prove to someone that the scriptures are the truth. The scriptures - God's word CONVICT or PIERCE the man's heart. God tells me I must use his words of truth - the scriptures, and not my OWN words, to which I have provided the scriptural references for this on other posts on this thread. Here is one, one more time for you:

Hebrews 4

12. For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.


You see, it is God's word of truth - His words THAT CONVICT AND PIERCE and have no need to be proven TRUE by the atheist or anyone else, as they HEAR the word of God, THEY WILL KNOW it.


Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

Okay,

Then show us where God's Word does NOT use logic.

God uses logic and reason all the time, michelle. As I have shown, God is perfectly logical. It can be no other way.

If God is perfectly logical and God requires faith, then how can it be that faith is not logical, michelle?

We are called to be like the Lord. We are to increase in knowledge, among other things. (2 Peter 1) Knowledge is not illogical. It is logical. To deny logic is to deny God. To insist otherwise is to persist in ungodliness.

God use logic. He requires it of us, because our faith is a logical faith. I have demontrated this repeatedly by expositing Scripture and articulating apologetics to you, as have many others.

 

1 Peter 3
15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

Can you give a reason and prove it without using logic?

 

That has not been confirmed. Everything in God's Word is true but not everything that is true is in God's Word. True logic does have God for its source and will never contradict scripture but not every rule of logic is spelled out in the Bible.

You are not using the logic nor the word of scripture- that is what I am indicating. Scripture nowhere says nor implies what you believe. Evaluation of the available facts by scriptural principles disproves what you believe.

I acknowledge that you have faith but that faith is in no way based on the Bible.

That is what your beliefs are based on. You are going beyond what God said. Plain and simple.

You have claimed that faith and logic are contrary to one another. That is a false dichotomy. Nowhere in your rambling, near incoherent response did you come anywhere close to proving that I am proposing a false dichotomy.

True faith and true logic compliment each other. Truth never contradicts itself.

 

See, Michelle, your primary authority is what God tells you. You admit it right here. God tells you to use the scriptures.

Even if God tells you that His scriptures are His Words, God "tells" you comes first. No wonder you don't believe in a logical connection to faith.

God also tells you the scriptures are the KJV, and you argue with me when I say that God tells me that my ESV is God's Word. Full circle.

 

Great point, Scott.

I will also add that if apparent logic does not point to a God created universe, then there is a flaw in our perception of that logic.

All logic and physical/spiritual laws derived from God.

It is logical that God exists to create this universe.

 

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Left only with the natural reason/logic that God blessed all men with and the things we can sense around us, man is without excuse.

Romans1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Michelle, this passage condemns men who suppress the truth... in contradiction to logic and reason, not faith. In fact, it is a false faith that causes them to suppress logic and reason.
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THis passage tells us quite clearly and plainly that all men KNOW God exists, and therefore HAVE NO EXCUSE to REJECT Him and His WORD, and to which shows absolutely that atheism is not true atheism. Man however, cannot know of salvation/redemption through NATURE/CREATION as this only comes by FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST who is the WORD OF GOD, and by HEARING the word of God. As the scriptures also clearly indicate:


Romans 10

13. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15. And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16. But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17. So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18. But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.


Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

Michelle, I am not trying to trap you here, I really would like to see a scripture that says that all men KNOW God exists. Somehow I think this is right up there with "Cleanliness is next to Godliness."

So, you are saying your husband is an athiest, but he knows God exists, so he is really not an athiest? Does he know he is not an athiest?

 

I do not disagree with Michelle that God's Word contains the gospel that we must have for salvation. But, I don't think she understands that mankind/womankind crave a logical reason for what they believe.

This is the reason people who are creationists spend their time studying science, because science is compatable with what we believe. Armed with this kind of logic, a person can see that God exists, then when they seek Him, they will find Him--in the scriptures. So, from the point of view that the scriptures are necessary, there is no doubt about that.

But the scriptures and logic must go together because God created everything which logically came from Him.

 

CORRECT! That is exactly what those passages teach, michelle. NOBODY here has said that logic saves. We are saved by grace through faith. Man KNOWS that God exists. He knows this logically, through either deduction or intuitively, via induction (intuition is a form of inductive logic, reason in the classical form is deductive logic). Paul affirms inductive logic in Acts when he reasons with the Greek philosophers regarding the identity of the Unknown God, which Aristotle had reasoned must exist as "the UnMoved Mover."

Read carefully, Romans 1 is a LOGICAL presention. The passage you quoted from Romans 10 USES LOGIC in order to relate its truth. This evidences that godly faith is also, whether a person realizes it or not, also LOGICAL. Faith and logic are NOT mutually exclusive. If they were, then how can it be that God inspired Paul to use logic in these passages or in 1 Corinthians and why did Paul affirm it's use when he preached in Athens?