"Faith without works is dead" (James 2:17)

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Ruht, Aug 6, 2002.

  1. Ruht

    Ruht
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    Anyone who has engaged in the eternal security discussion has probably been confronted by the legalist's reference to James 2:17 "faith, if it hath not works, is dead," when the mention of works comes up during the discussion.

    Is this passage proof that a one time faith in Christ is not good enough, that one's salvation cannot be obtained without works, thus making eternal security a false concept?

    The answer to that is, of course, that this verse is often misunderstood by the legalist (those engaging in legalism), as this passage does not say salvation without works is dead, but rather "faith" without works is dead. What this means is that one's faith will be proven by the type of action or "work" that follows that faith.

    This passage, of course, condemns the theology of the legalist, not affirms it. For the action or work that follows true faith in the blood of Christ - grace - is the action or work of not working to obtain eternal life. However, the person who doesn't trust grace, who doesn't have true or total faith in the blood of Christ - grace - will have his faith in works proven by his action or "works" of trying to do good works to get into heaven.

    The believer in grace works the work of not working; the believer in works works the work of works. Each of these two actions - not working for salvation, or working for salvation - proves what it is that one believes.

    James even set up the legalist in his writings, at the beginning of his writings, when he reminded them before he wrote the 2nd chapter on faith without works is dead, where he told them, in the Spirit, not to be a just a hearer of the perfect law of liberty, but a doer. This means for the person who was about to possibly stumble in the 2nd chapter to stand firm on grace while interpreting scripture, so as not to stumble in the following 2nd chapter through misinterpretation.

    He was simply saying to not forget that we are saved only by grace - meaning to not be someone who hears they are saved by grace, but forgets this precept when reading scripture that sounds otherwise; but rather be a "doer" of grace - meaning one who does not forget this precept and abandon it when difficult scripture comes along - and thus stand firm on this sure foundation when one then goes on to read the next chapter. And by doing so, God would open one's eyes to what it really meant, not thinking that it meant that one must have works to have salvation.

    See if you can see this:

    "But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: for he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed." - James 1:22-25

    Those who are told they are saved by grace, not by works, but then forget this and then think the scriptures say that they must "endure" and have works to have salvation, do so because they have in a sense forgotten the "perfect law of liberty," which is salvation by grace and grace alone, and they therefore have stumbled at such difficult scripture because they failed to remain upon the sure foundation of grace; meaning they have forgotten what "manner of man they were;" meaning men saved by grace and only grace, not by any works whatsoever.

    But those who refuse to interpret scripture in haste, but remain upon the sure foundation of grace and grace alone, remembering what manner of man they are - saved by grace, not by works, not by any works of any kind at any time, the perfect law of liberty - are blessed for this faith, and their eyes are therefore opened to the true meaning of these scriptures; in which all scriptures only refer to grace, and never contradict salvation by grace and thus, eternal security.

    James prepared the reader for the 2nd chapter - which the Holy Ghost knew that many would stumble over - by reminding us of salvation by strictly grace, in the 1st chapter. And the Holy Ghost did so as an anchor to the doers of the word, doers of grace, and as a testimony against those who were not doers of the word, but rather only hearers, and the stumble they would take in the 2nd chapter.

    God's word is truly amazing, and a treasure unto those who wait upon the sure foundation.

    God bless.
     
  2. Dualhunter

    Dualhunter
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    Agreed, faith without works is dead. We are still saved by grace through faith and nothing else. To explain this I will ask you some questions. Are you a new creation?

    17 Therefore if anyone is (1) in Christ, he is (2) a new creature; (3) the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. - 2 Corinthians 5:17 NASB

    It doesn't say if anyone wants to be in Christ, nor if anyone wants to stay in Christ, it says, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature. Not is becoming a new creation but is.

    3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one (1) is born again he cannot see (2) the kingdom of God." - John 3:3 NASB

    Being born happens at a specific time, yes you do then grow but that does not change that the fact that being born again is a one time event that is not continuing. A person is born again and then grows, a person is not being born again while growing.

    26 "Moreover, I will give you a (39) new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the (40) heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. - Ezekiel 36:26 NASB

    Man's problem is that he has a sinful heart of stone and he needs a new and holy heart. Man cannot live a holy life simply because he had some water sprinkled on him while he was a baby, he needs a new heart.

    8 For (1) by grace you have been saved (2) through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is (3) the gift of God;
    9 (4) not as a result of works, so that (5) no one may boast.
    10 For we are His workmanship, (6) created in (7) Christ Jesus for (8) good works, which God (9) prepared beforehand so that we would (10) walk in them. - Ephesians 2:8-10 NASB

    Saved by grace through faith, not by works. Salvation is a free gift, when you truly receive the gift, you receive the Holy Spirit who spiritually regenerates you giving you a new heart, fundamentally changing your nature so that you can serve Christ. We are created in Christ for good works, not by good works.

    13 In Him, you also, after listening to (35) the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were (36) sealed in Him with (37) the Holy Spirit of promise, - Ephesians 1:13 NASB

    We are sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit by trusting in what He has done for us on the cross. Baptism does not put us in Christ, faith in Christ does and not only does it put us in Christ the Father seals us in Christ with His Holy Spirit.

    29 so that (64) no man may boast before God.
    30 But by His doing you are in (65) Christ Jesus, who became to us (66) wisdom from God, and (67) righteousness and (68) sanctification, and (69) redemption, - 1 Corinthians 1:29-30 NASB

    As previously stated it is God the Father who puts us in Christ (by His doing you are in (65) Christ).

    My next question is would you like to accept the free gift of eternal life, would you like for the Father to seal you in Christ with His Holy Spirit of promise, would you like to receive a new heart and be made a new creation in Christ?
     
  3. Dualhunter

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    As for eternal security, how many times did Christ die? How many times must Christ time for a person to be made perfect?

    10 By this will we have been (19) sanctified through (20) the offering of (21) the body of Jesus Christ (22) once for all.
    11 Every priest stands daily ministering and (23) offering time after time the same sacrifices, which (24) can never take away sins;
    12 but He, having offered one sacrifice (25) for sins (26) for all time, (27) SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD,
    13 waiting from that time onward (28) UNTIL HIS ENEMIES BE MADE A FOOTSTOOL FOR HIS FEET.
    14 For by one offering He has (29) perfected (30) for all time those who are sanctified.
    15 And (31) the Holy Spirit also testifies to us; for after saying,
    16
    "(32) THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM
    AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD:
    I WILL PUT MY LAWS UPON THEIR HEART,
    AND ON THEIR MIND I WILL WRITE THEM,"
    He then says,
    17
    "(33) AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS
    I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."
    18 Now where there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer any offering for sin.

    - Hebrews 10:10-18 NASB
     
  4. UncleRay

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    Don't have much time tonight, but this really popped out at me.

    The believer in grace works the work of not working; the believer in works works the work of works.

    Wow. And we call some folks legalists. :D
    That's almost like "how much wood could the woodchuck chuck....."

    No disrespect to your post. This just made me chuckle. It's too late to be up for a farmer.

    Grace and peace,
    Uncle Ray
     
  5. Bro. Curtis

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    Jame's, at first read, does appear to contradict most of Paul's epistles. But with careful reading, and comparint with Christ's words, one will come to the conclusion that James and Paul were fighting the same enemy.
     
  6. Ruht

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    "The believer in grace works the work of not working; the believer in works works the work of works."

    It takes awhile before it hits one right smack dab between the eyes. I believe I read once where Calvin himself even had difficulty understanding James 2.

    Faith without works is indeed dead. However, salvation without works is not.

    The word of God is sharper than any twoedged sword.

    You show me your faith in the grace of God, the blood of Jesus Christ, by your work of trying to work your way into heaven; I'll show you my faith by my work of not trying to work my way into heaven, by my entering into God's rest. One shows faith in works; the other shows faith in Christ.

    And here's the more confirmation, another "tongue twister":

    "Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief." - Hebrews 4:11

    Translation: Let us work ("labour") the work of not working, the work of being at rest in the work of Christ on the cross.

    "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." - James 2:17

    One cannot say they believe in something, if they have not the proper actions (works) that prove such faith.

    The same verse translated:

    "Even so faith, if it hath not the proper action which proves such a faith, is therefore not true faith."

    See if you can see this here, in another passage which many a legalist has also misinterpreted:

    "Not every one that saith to me "Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. For many shall say unto me on that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And I will profess unto them, I never knew you, depart from me ye that work iniquity. Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken unto a man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon the house; and it fell not, for it was founded upon a rock. But whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon the house; and it fell, and great was the fall of it." - Matthew 7:21-27

    The legalist will think this verse means that one must "endure until the end," that one has to keep doing the "will of the Father in heaven;" they thinking that the "will of the Father in heaven" is to try to get to heaven by trying not to sin by trying to keep written commandments. However, to the person who is a doer of the "perfect law of liberty," he will know that the "will of the Father in heaven" is not to be justified through works, but through the shed blood of Jesus Christ, the sure foundation, the rock.

    If the legalists in here will happen to look at the answer given by the condemned as to why they pled they should be allowed into heaven, it is revealed that they did not trust in the blood of Christ for their salvation, his cross, but rather their own words testified that they trusted in their "many wonderful works." For not one time did they mention the cross, what Christ had done, but rather each answer they gave revealed that they trusted in what they had done.

    If the legalists will also notice, Christ did not say that he knew them once, but then they fell away; rather he said that he "never" knew them, meaning they had never been saved.

    Christ mentioned the hearers and the doers in that passage, just like they are mentioned in the first chapter of James. And James reminds us, just as Christ did in the Spirit, that it is faith in the grace of God that is the will of God, faith in the cross, not righteousness through works; the doers of grace, not the ones who hear they are saved by grace, but then turn to try and justify themselves through works.

    "But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory." - I Corinthians 2:7

    I pray the legalists and the babes in Christ who do not understand their salvation as of yet, listen to the Spirit.

    God bless.
     
  7. Star

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    Ruht,

    I'm so glad your here with us THAT was wonderfully put and enlightening at the same time. The detail of your post shows real thought in handling the word of God. Amen brother!

    What are the "works of God that WE MIGHT DO?

    To BELIEVE!!!

    On that day they will say, "Did WE NOT DO many great works in THY NAME"? Out of the overflow of ones mouth the heart did certainly speak concerning what they trusted in.

    I loved the connection to "we labor to enter our REST".

    Isaiah 30:15 For thus saith the Lord GOD, the Holy One of Israel; In returning and REST shall ye be saved; in quietness and in confidence shall be your strength: and ye would NOT.

    Sometimes you know something inside you and another brother or sister rewords it and even adds further insight and connection to it and it hits home once again in a deeper way. I know I'll enjoy reading your posts.

    God bless you Ruht [​IMG]

    In Him Kim
     
  8. charles

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    OSAS is a part of the Baptist doctrine that I cannot agree with but who cares.Let those who understand the teachings as osas continue,but if it offends someone's conscience to believe it let them also continue.

    Truth in this issue is irrevelant.Salvation depends on the power of the one who owns it.The one who bought it with a great price.It can't be bought by works.However a dead faith that doesn't produce good works is in trouble of condemnation.If our faith is so weak that we will not begin our journey with the simple command to accept Jesus as Lord and be baptized,just how strong is our faith.

    If we begin our christian journey and fall into the temptations of satan by indulging in the sins of the flesh,can we depend on the grace of God to save us even if we refuse to repent.

    Salvation has committment attached to it.Our faith is made perfect by our good works.

    That wishy washy James,was so caught up in works that he thought the grace of God was insuffient for salvation,he thought to be saved required circumcision.However,God chose him to be inspired to write the book of James.We depend on the revelation of the Holy Spirit and not James when we read his book.Of course we all know that this book was addressed to people who were already christians.

    God bless,Charles
     
  9. ONENESS

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    *Grins*

    The things some people will say to sooth their minds.

    Godblessd
     
  10. Helen

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    Wow! There goes Jesus!

    Is it OK if I feel utterly confused by what you are trying to say there?

    You are right in saying salvation cannot be bought by good works.

    But a dead faith is not a faith given by God. Faith is how you put actions, or feet, to your beliefs. If you say you believe something to be true but refuse to act in accordance with what you say you believe, then you have a dead faith. Faith for a Christian involves the power and courage to live according to what you believe to be true.

    Well, one cannot begin a Christian journey without being born again. When one is born again, one is indwelt by the Holy Spirit and given a new heart. That combination makes one WANT to please God and WANT to repent when one transgresses. So I honestly do not see how a born again Christian can refuse to repent...

    Salvation shows God's commitment to us. Not ours to Him. He knows we are weak and a mess still. So (Phil. 1:6) He Himself takes responsibility for raising us up to be His finished work. He does not depend on us to do that!

    Our good works are an expression of Christ within us by the presence of His Holy Spirit. He directs our lives, and therefore our faith is made complete, or 'perfect' by Him.

    Oh really? Could you point me to where he said any of that? Thank you.

    I have a really hard time calling anyone like James who was willing to call hypocrisy the example of dead faith it is wishy-washy. His words would have struck at the heart of all 'easy believism' then and now. Personally, I think that took a little courage and conviction.
     
  11. Brother Adam

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    Thank you Helen. You saved me some typing time [​IMG] (you practically took the words right out of my mouth :D )

    Bro. Adam
     
  12. Ruht

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    Good works are not works done for pay; therefore those who think they have to have good works to get to heaven are not performing good works, they are performing dead works.

    And they are denying the blood of Christ as being good enough to provide salvation to them.

    A truly good work is a work done through love, without any fear of anything happening to one if they don't do such works; a work done without any "pay" attached to the end of it.

    Christ did a truly good work upon the cross. He did not have to die for us, for he was God and he had eternal life. He was not trying to earn anything for himself, rather he was trying to earn eternal life for us. He did what he did strictly out of love for us, through the "will" of his inward nature, his Holy Spirit. He would not have gone to hell had he not done so; he had nothing to fear personally if he did not do what he did.

    Likewise, the saved are born of the Holy Spirit who will, by nature, produce truly good works of love in those born of God. However, those works do not save anyone, nor do they insure anyone their salvation after they are saved. And the theology which teaches that one must do such dead works to insure their salvation, is not from the Lord, but from the very "seducing spirits" and the "doctrines of devils" that I Timothy 4:1 speaks of, and what the following mentions even further:

    "O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn from you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? Have ye suffered so many things in vain? It it be yet in vain." - Hebrews 3:1-4

    Does the legalist understand this? These Galatians had been saved through faith in the cross ("before whose eyes Jesus Christ had been evidently set forth, crucified among you"), but they had then thought they must stay saved, or in other words "insure" their salvation, by trying to keep the righteousness of the law; in other words, by a continual effort of trying to do what they thought was "serving Jesus" by trying to justify themselves through their attempts to keep written commandments for their justification.

    Paul reveals here in Galatians, as he does in I Timothy 4:1, that this theology against eternal security, grace, is not from God, but is from a "bewitching" spirit. In I Timothy 4:1 he referred to such beliefs as from a "seducing spirit," from the "doctrines of devils."

    Paul tells these "foolish Galatians" (who were actually saved babes in Christ who did not understand their salvation), that if they received salvation by faith in the cross, not by works, that why then did they now think they would continue in their salvation, insure their salvation, through trying to justify themselves through trying to obey the law; through works. He says to them:

    "Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? are ye so foolish, having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain."

    Translated: "Did you receive salvation and the new birth of the Holy Spirit by the righteousness through trying to keep the law, or by faith in the blood of Christ? Are you so foolish to think that if you were only saved by faith in the blood of Christ, not by the works of the law, that you would then now think that after you were saved in such a way that now the only way you could continue to be saved is by a way that could not bring you salvation in the first place? And if so, then has not then all of the efforts and sufferings and denials you have done, through by trying to get righteousness through the law, been useless and a waste of time for you? However, if you learn something by this, then this foolish experience and belief of yours can be used for good in the future."

    Paul was trying to tell these ignorant babes in Christ that if they were not saved by the righteousness of trying to keep written commandments, the righteousness of the written law, the righteousness of trying not to "sin," then why did they now think that those things would insure their salvation that they only got not by those things in the first place, but instead by having faith in Christ and his cross, alone.

    If you are only saved by faith in Christ, what he did upon the cross, not by the works of the law, then you only stay saved the same way, not by your own efforts of self-righteousness through the law. And this means any written law.

    "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness unto him, neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned" - I Corinthians 2:14

    Glad you are blessed, Star.

    God bless.

    [ August 07, 2002, 09:55 PM: Message edited by: Ruht ]
     
  13. charles

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    Hey Helen,
    I like your theology.Very good reply.As far as James being wishy washy,one example is in Galations2:9."James,Peter and John,those reputed to be pillars,gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship when they recognized the ...(grace)..given to me.They ..
    (agreed)..that we should go to the gentiles and they to the jews.

    But after recognizing Paul and his teachings on grace,he sent men to Antioch to preach circumcision as a requirement to be saved.Defying what Paul was teaching.He seemed to be a hypocrite.Paul said"I do not set aside the grace of God,for if righteousness could be gained through the law,Christ died for nothing.Just what did James stand for ?

    When James was inspired to write his book,the Spirit inside him said:James2:22 :You see that his(Abraham's)faith ...and....his actions were working together ,and his faith was made complete by what he"did".Which is what you said and I agree.It was his actions,not God's that made his faith perfect.

    Let's get real,sure our faith justifies us but it's gonna be dead if we give in after awhile to sin.I'm sure there are a lot of christians tonight in hellholes and passion pits,can faith save them in these circumstances.I'm speaking of those who won't repent but at one time accepted Jesus as Lord.Maybe those of us in the Church of Christ are not fully understanding of OSAS.Sorry for not cutting and pasting,my terminal is not fully equiped.

    God bless you sister Helen,Charles
     
  14. SolaScriptura

    SolaScriptura
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    For those who love to interpret Scriptures backwards, what does Hebrews 5:9 mean?

    (Heb 5:9) "And being made perfect, he [Jesus] became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;"
     
  15. Ruht

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    Why ask someone, if you think they are interpreting scripture "backwards?"

    But so you learn, he means those who have faith in his blood, not those who have faith in written commandments. For one is not "obeying" God if one tries to justify themselves through written law:

    "And this is his commandment, that we should believe on the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment." - I John 3:23

    "For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them." - II Peter 2:21

    And, the only people who truly obey the righteousness of the law are those who do so through spirit, not those who try to do so through letter:

    "Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfill the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision doth transgress the law?" - Romans 2:26&27

    "Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life." - II Corinthians 3:6

    "Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets:" - Romans 3:20&21

    "For as many are are of the works of the law are under its curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for the just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them." - Galatians 3:10-12

    "... the strength of sin is the law." - I Corinthians 15:56

    And as for the claim of James being a book of error, every word of it is from the Holy Ghost. There are no errors in it. The problem with men is that it can only be properly interpreted through the Holy Ghost, not through the natural understanding of man:

    "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." - I Corinthians 2:14

    God bless.
     
  16. Star

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    For those who love to interpret Scriptures backwards, what does Hebrews 5:9 mean?

    Sola, back up a verse to Hebrews 5:8

    Hebrews 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet LEARNED HE OBEDIENCE by the things which he suffered; And BEING MADE PERFECT, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

    We also are regarded as Sons and the suffering of Christ overflows into our lives, (we are not above Him). We learn obedience as well and that obedience is to walk in love toward one another. He will accomplish that which concerns us. We are being made perfect in Love, rooted and grounded in the love of God in Christ Jesus.

    The Author and finisher of our faith which goal is Love.

    The Goal of our faith IS LOVE, the obedience of Christ IS LOVE, We are being perfected in LOVE, God teaches us to LOVE, against LOVE there is NO LAW. LOVE fulfills the law. There isn't even room for taking up upon our lips the words, "I love God" IF we do not love our brother the scriptures declare us a liar, period.

    Search us and know us and see if there be any hurtful way in us because love does no harm to His neighbor.

    Who will be foolish enough to ask, "who is my neighbor"? perhaps desiring to pick and chose who one feels justified in excluding or including in the love dept.

    In Him Kim
     
  17. SolaScriptura

    SolaScriptura
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    I agree that one who seeks justification by the Law of Moses will not attain it, but those who seek it by faith will. (Rom 9:32) We are not speaking of the written law which was delivered by Moses, however, but of the Law written in the hearts which God Himself writes in a man's heart. If one is not obeying God he isn't saved. (Heb 5:9)
     
  18. Ruht

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    Amen, Star, love is the fulfilling of the righteousness of the written law, not the keeping of the law to the letter.

    And this love can only be done by man when one is born of the Spirit of love, the Holy Spirit.

    I ask the legalists in here which of the two examples do you say is the fulfilling of the righteousness of the law:

    1) A person who sees his neighbor drowning in a lake which has a sign he sees posted at the lake which says, "No swimming of any kind ever allowed for any purpose," and therefore he decides to obey the written law and does not swim out to his neighbor and save him, and his neighbor therefore drowns.

    Or,

    2) A person who sees the same sign, but decides to swim out and save his neighbor anyway.

    Who do you say obeyed the righteousness of the law, in that instance? Who do you say "loved" his neighbor?

    Love is the fulfilling of the righteousness of the law, not the fulfillment of the written law to the letter. Therefore the person who keeps the written law, but does not keep the righteousness of the written law, his keeping of the written law is counted as not keeping the law. However, the person who does not keep the written law, but nevertheless keeps the righteousness of the written law, which is love, his keeping of the righteousness of the written law is counted as the keeping of the law, even though he did not keep it in letter.

    And this is what God was saying when he wrote this:

    "For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is counted for uncircumcision. Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted as circumcision? And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfill the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law? - Romans 2:25-27

    What does this mean? what I tried to show you before. To translate this passage:

    "For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law (For the letter of the law is good, if it is used lawfully, meaning if it is done through love, for only love is the fulfilling of the law): but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is counted for uncircumcision (but if you be a breaker of the righteousness of the law, love, then your keeping of the letter of the law is not the fulfillment of the law, and not counted as such). Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted as circumcision? (Therefore if the people who do not necessarily keep the letter of the law, but do keep the righteousness of the law, shall not they nevertheless be counted as keeping the law, even though they do not necessarily keep the letter of the law?) And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfill the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law? (And shall not those who do not keep the letter of the law, but who keep the righteousness of the law, by nature through the birth of the Holy Spirit, expose the shortcomings of those who do not fulfill the righteousness of the law, love, even though they have and keep the letter of the law?) - Romans 2:25-27

    A person who is born of the Holy Spirit keeps the law through keeping the righteousness of the law, through love, by nature; the person not born of God tries to keep the law against his true nature, through the letter, not through love but through fear of condemnation, and in hope of earning salvation.

    A person born of God does not need written law to do good, he will do so by nature, through love. Therefore the law is only for the unrighteous, not the righteous; as witnessed to in I Timothy 1:9.

    God bless.

    [ August 08, 2002, 03:34 AM: Message edited by: Ruht ]
     
  19. Ruht

    Ruht
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    "For one is not "obeying" God if one tries to justify themselves through written law:"

    This includes any written law, not just the written law of Moses.

    A person is not changed inside by trying to change the outside. A person is only changed on the inside by being born of the Holy Spirit. Written law, any written law, cannot change the heart of man. Only the birth of the Holy Spirit changes the heart of man.

    Some mistakenly try to justify themselves by what they call "new laws" of Jesus Christ. What they are doing is simply trading one set of written laws for what they think is another. But Christ meant all written laws, as the cleansing of the outward man does not cleanse the inward man.

    God does not do good because he has a set of written laws telling him how to do good. Rather God does good because he is good, and he is good because his Spirit is good. And he makes us the same way when he puts his same Spirit within us when we are saved and born again. Therefore we also then do not need written laws in order to do good, for as you said, we now have the law "written in our hearts," meaning we are now born of the Holy Spirit.

    God bless.
     
  20. SolaScriptura

    SolaScriptura
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    What about the law that is written ON THE HEART?

    It is Jesus that justifies, the law doesn't. But who does Jesus justify? Heb 5:9 - Those that obey Jesus are those whom He justifies - that is those that obey His new law obviously, the one written ON THE HEART.
     

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