Falling away???

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Eladar, Feb 4, 2002.

  1. Eladar

    Eladar
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    In Luke 8:13, Jesus explains the rocky soil in this way (From the KJV)

    They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

    Is it safe to say that there are those who fall away from the faith?

    Either that or Jesus is a liar.
     
  2. Kellisa

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    What do you think is the root he is speaking of?
     
  3. Eladar

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    I think that these people don't apply God's teachings to their lives.

    In any case, in order to fall away, one must first be apart of the church.

    What Jesus says is clear:

    These people believed.

    These people were apart of the church.

    These people fell away.


    If you don't believe this, then I ask, what did these people fall away from?
     
  4. Kellisa

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    Are they those that believed in vain?
     
  5. Eladar

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    I believe Paul called them that. Jesus just refers to this group as ones that 'fall away'.
     
  6. Kellisa

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    They fell away from the truth of God's word. Just because they believed for a time does not mean they were saved. There is a big difference between believing the word of God and being saved? I know this from personal experience.
     
  7. Eladar

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    Jesus never says anything about their state of salvation, just a state of belief in the word of God.

    Jesus states that there are people who believe (and I assume would be baptized) and yet fall away.

    There is such a thing as non-elect believing the word of God.
     
  8. Kellisa

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tuor:
    Jesus never says anything about their state of salvation, just a state of belief in the word of God.

    Jesus states that there are people who believe (and I assume would be baptized) and yet fall away.

    There is such a thing as non-elect believing the word of God.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


    Then I must have misunderstood you, I thought you were trying to prove a point that salvation can be lost. I agree with you there are many non-elect that believe the word of God.
     
  9. Eladar

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    I believe this does have to do with 'eternal security'.

    My point would be one I've said many times on this board, and that is that self-proclaimed salvation is meaningless.

    Only God can judge salvation. Until the race is finished, who knows?

    Do you really believe the ones who believe in vain (as Paul called them) or fall away (as Jesus called them), actually know what kind of soil they are?

    But hey, at least we know for a fact that the 'act' of walking away does demonstrate that such a one who was considered saved, wasn't actually saved to begin with.(This would be a step in the Arminean direction for some)
     
  10. Kellisa

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tuor:
    I believe this does have to do with 'eternal security'.

    My point would be one I've said many times on this board, and that is that self-proclaimed salvation is meaningless.

    Only God can judge salvation. Until the race is finished, who knows?

    Do you really believe the ones who believe in vain (as Paul called them) or fall away (as Jesus called them), actually know what kind of soil they are?

    But hey, at least we know for a fact that the 'act' of walking away does demonstrate that such a one who was considered saved, wasn't actually saved to begin with.(This would be a step in the Arminean direction for some)
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


    Who can know, we can know. It is not for us to know others hearts but we can know our own. That is why God sent us his Son so we can have eternal life and know that we have eternal life. I John 5:13 tells us that he wrote these things so we may know that we have eternal life. We don't have to guess at it. We (the saved) have security in Christ. My salvation is not up in the air everyday. I don't wonder whether I am going to heaven. I know that Christ paid for my sins on that tree and that I have eternal life through him. Even though we don't always know others hearts we can get a pretty good idea by looking at thier life.
     
  11. Eladar

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    If you'll look back at 1 John, you'll see that John gives very concrete ways of discerning true Christians from those who call themselves Christian.

    Even in 1 John there is mention of a group that appeared saved, they couldn't be told apart from the rest of the believers until they left.

    But as Paul said, if you continue in your faith, then it will lead to salvation.
     
  12. Kellisa

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    Just because they appeared saved and were not does not take away from the fact that we can know we are saved. Salvation is not something we earn, it is a gift, it cannot be lost.
     
  13. Eladar

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kellisa:
    Just because they appeared saved and were not does not take away from the fact that we can know we are saved. Salvation is not something we earn, it is a gift, it cannot be lost.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    What I have said has absolutely nothing to do with 'earning' salvation.

    If no action will reflect our salvation, then why did Jesus say that these people will not be saved because they fell away?
     
  14. Kellisa

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    We have lots of actions that can reflect our salvation, but those actions are not what saved us. Does that make any sense? I don't know how to explain what I am trying to say.
     
  15. Eladar

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    We have lots of actions that can reflect our salvation

    I think the operative word there is 'can'.

    You are right in the fact that sin is not an automatic lose of salvation card. There are two types of sinners, sinners that repent and strive to live according to God's commandments(those on the road to salvation) and those who either don't know what God commands or don't care(those on the road to destruction).

    The difference is the way of life.

    Jesus does say that by our words will be condemned and by our words we will be justified. Some might call words 'works' Jesus says that words are a fruit that are an outward manifestation of the heart.
     
  16. TomVols

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    This in no way negates the Biblical doctrine of eternal security. First, there is no proof that these people are regenerate people. Jesus is describing people with no root. Is this a saved, believing person? Hardly.
    Second, even if this was a saved person, the Greek word for the phrase "fall away" doesn't necessarily mean that the person fell away for good. Therefore, this verse in no way negates the Biblical doctrine of security of the believer.
     
  17. Eladar

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>. First, there is no proof that these people are regenerate people. Jesus is describing people with no root. Is this a saved, believing person? Hardly.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    Jesus says these people 'fell away' didn't He? In order to fall away, doesn't one need to first belong? <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Second, even if this was a saved person, the Greek word for the phrase "fall away" doesn't necessarily mean that the person fell away for good. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Tom, what then do you think is meant when Jesus says that the plant dies?

    If these people weren't believers, then what did Jesus mean by 'fall away'? To fall away, you would first need to be apart of the group, would you not?

    [ February 04, 2002: Message edited by: Tuor ]
     
  18. TomVols

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    If they fall away, they never believed. We cannot forget John 6:37,39, et.al. And again, even if we assume they were believers, there's nothing final about this falling away. This Greek word here can mean to withdraw from, to be aloof, or to refrain from. It is not necessarily a final refusal. Remember, this verse cannot teach something that the rest of the Bible does not teach. Therefore, this verse is not in opposition to eternal salvation from God.
     
  19. Eladar

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> If they fall away, they never believed. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Yet Jesus says:

    for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

    Jesus said that these people believed, but because of tempatation 'fall away'. According to Jesus, the people represented by the rocky soil both believe the word of God and fall away.

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>And again, even if we assume they were believers, there's nothing final about this falling away. This Greek word here can mean to withdraw from, to be aloof, or to refrain from. It is not necessarily a final refusal. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I don't know if I agree with what you say here or not. God has made the soil what it is. If the heart is indeed rocky soil, even if this person believes again, the end will be the same. The end is due to the type of heart, not the seed itself.

    Although there may be some possibilities due to the word used, taken in context of a dead plant, the word dies in this type of soil, it doesn't bear fruit. If it doesn't bear fruit, it is tossed into the fire.

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Remember, this verse cannot teach something that the rest of the Bible does not teach. Therefore, this verse is not in opposition to eternal salvation from God. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>In other words, you want to adjust scripture to fit your understanding of it. We must adjust our views to scripture, not the other way around.
     
  20. Chris Temple

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tuor:
    In other words, you want to adjust scripture to fit your understanding of it. We must adjust our views to scripture, not the other way around.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    You have been answered several times over in this thread" http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=35&t=000039&p=1

    So in other words, you have rec'd biblical and cogent answers, yet you want to adjust scripture to fit your understanding of it. You're not interested in learning, but in being right.
     

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