False Teachers Hinder Salvation

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by Van, Dec 28, 2013.

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  1. Van

    Van
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    In the Calvinist scheme of things, it does not matter whether the gospel is presented accurately or not, no human being is able to respond to it appropriately anyway, because everyone in their natural fallen state suffers from total spiritual inability.

    Then, again according to Calvinism, those individuals that were pre-selected before creation to be saved, are altered supernaturally by irresistible grace, such that they come to Christ. In such a scheme, the message does not matter, only whether or not God choose the foreseen individual for salvation.

    Paul drives an alternate view home in Philippians 1:15-18. Paul says it does not matter if you hear Christ proclaimed from a person motivated by compassion and good will or from a wolf in sheep's clothing, because the message is everything.

    In Matthew 23:13 we read where folks have responded to the message and are actually in the process of entering heaven when they are blocked by false teachers. So either the folks had some spiritual ability or they had received "irresistible grace" but then the grace could not have irresistible for they were blocked.

    Bottom line, the gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation.

    Beware of False Teachers

    Matthew 7:15,16 Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits....

    2 Timothy 4:3,4 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth , and be turned aside to fables.

    Acts 20:29-31 For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves . Therefore watch, and remember that for three years I did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears.

    Matthew 15:9 And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.

    2 Peter 2:1 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

    2 Peter 3:16,17 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures. You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked;

    Colossians 2:8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.

    Hebrews 13:9 Do not be carried about with various and strange doctrines. For it is good that the heart be established by grace, not with foods which have not profited those who have been occupied with them.

    Clearly then, the gospel of Christ can be corrupted by the traditions of men, and the results can prevent folks from entering heaven. So we should stick with what the Bible says, and not add stuff never mentioned in the Bible, such as the folks of Matthew 23:13 entered heaven later. We are to believe what it says, not believe in things not said. Extrapolations based on logical necessity are fine, but saying one of a number of possible extrapolations is doctrine is unsound.

    Total Spiritual Inability and Irresistible Grace seem to me to be unsound doctrines that present the traditions of men, rather than God's doctrine of Matthew 23:13.

    Limited Atonement, as defined by Calvinism, is another apparent unsound doctrine. Note that 1 Peter 2:1 says the false teachers were bought, teaching general reconciliation rather than limited atonement as defined by Calvinism.

    Christians should stick with what they first believed in, "for God so loved the world (all of mankind) that He gave His one of a kind Son so that whoever (and God has not foreordained who can believe) believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life."

    Does Calvinism misstate the gospel? Yes in my opinion. The Bible teaches folks have limited spiritual ability, we can discern God from what He has made, and by the practice of sin, we can harden our hearts so we are unable to understand the gospel, like the first of the four soils of Matthew 13. Therefore, I believe the doctrine of "Total Spiritual Inability" misstates the gospel. The doctrine of Unconditional Election before Creation also misstates the gospel in my opinion. God chooses folks during their lives after they have lived without mercy (1 Peter 2:9-10) based on crediting their faith as righteousness (Romans 4:4-5). Biblical Election is presented in 2 Thessalonians 2:13, where God has chosen folks from the beginning of the New Covenant, through sanctification by the Spirit - God sets us apart when He spiritually places us "in Christ,” and through knowledge of the Truth - our faith in Christ. Limited Atonement flies in the face of Christ being the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world, 1 John 2:2. Irresistible Grace is demonstrated false by Matthew 23:13 where folks who are entering heaven, thus under the influence of the supposed irresistible grace, are turned aside by false teachers. In summary, the New Testament teaches Limited Spiritual Ability that can be lost, Conditional election based on God crediting our faith as righteousness, Reconciliation of the world, all mankind, and the grace of God's revelation, which can be accepted or rejected.

    I believe Calvinism leads folks away from the simplicity of sound doctrine presented by Christ – whoever believes in Him, shall not perish, but have eternal life. And the impact of that can be observed when we are confronted by Atheists. They often cite the unsound doctrines of Calvinism as reasons they have rejected Christianity.

    In the 1890’s a scholar evaluating 2000 year old paper found in an Egyptian dump, discovered that the language of the common man, found in everyday correspondence, was the same language used in the New Testament. Thus it was written for the common man in a language they could understand. And the lesson we should draw is that our message should be clear and shrouded not in layers of theology.

    May God Bless
     
  2. Jacob_Elliott

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    The only thing that hinders salvation is total depravity, and yes no matter how great or poor the presenters performance it is God doing the saving. ex. shame on you for not doing a good enough job saving those poor people from damnation! Good day sir.
     
    #2 Jacob_Elliott, Dec 28, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 28, 2013
  3. preacher4truth

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    Paul the 'Calvinist' apostle disagrees with this, and for that matter nearly everything you teach. He preached for the sake of the elect, 2 Timothy 2:8-10, was bent on teaching rightly, 2 Timothy 2:15, 2 Timothy 3:16ff. He also knew that it was God that quickened His people, and that they only believe by the power of God, note the entirety of Ephesians 1-3. These same views are also held by my Reformed/DoG and Calvinist brothers and sisters in Christ. I know of no other camp than this one that preaches the Gospel so accurately.

    You on the other hand are presenting a straw man argument, and you convey an innate lack of understanding spiritual things, 2 Corinthians 2:14 all the while holding to and teaching a dissident theology and are in fact a false teacher yourself.
     
  4. quantumfaith

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    "Paul the Calvinist"....I missed that announcement in the biblical record, Mr. Bible scholar.
     
  5. quantumfaith

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    Good post Van, while you and I are not always in "lock step" on things, I appreciate in this post "how" you demonstrate your disagreement with someone of a differing theological viewpoint. You do so here with class. Kudos to you for that
     
  6. Van

    Van
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    Whenever someone presents a view that differs from what we hold as true, we are tempted to bash them, how dare they suggest we are on the wrong side of truth.

    Jacob, if we had no ability to seek God and trust in Christ, false teachers would not matter. But then God would not need to harden hearts, and Jesus would not have needed to speak in parables to preclude understanding. Your view is unbiblical, Sir.

    P4T, lets look at your references.

    2 Timothy 2:10 says, "So I endure all things for the sake of those chosen by God, that they too may obtain salvation in Christ Jesus and its eternal glory."

    1) Who are the chosen ones? That begs the question, chosen how, individually or corporately. Calvinists read into this text "individually" but "corporately" actually has more support, i.e. the corporately elected body of Christ. Thus the actual message is for the sake of those individuals placed into the body of Christ.

    2) That they too may obtain the salvation that is in Christ which includes eternal life. Thus, when teaching the chosen ones, it is for their sake, that they obtain the full blessings of salvation, and do not loose rewards, as one escaping from a fire.

    3) But in preaching for the sake of the corporately elected body of Christ, Paul is also preaching the gospel of Christ to the fields white with harvest, becoming all things so that he might win some.

    2 Timothy 2:15 actually supports my view and conflicts with yours, why study to present the gospel if false teaching does not matter? But if false teaching matters, then of course we should study till the cows come home.

    2 Timothy 3:16 again supports my view and conflicts with Calvinism. Why do we need to study to be adequate for every good work of evangelism, if false teaching does not matter? But if we have limited spiritual ability, able to understand the milk of the gospel, then we need to present God's inspired words accurately.
     
  7. Jacob_Elliott

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    That is the second time you have committed slander in this thread, which I believe is against the rules, but I suppose it won't matter because you are a non-cal
     
  8. preacher4truth

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    Yes. It didn't take you long to catch on. :thumbs:
     
  9. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith
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  10. Jacob_Elliott

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    It's really quite ridiculous!
     
  11. preacher4truth

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    Yes it is...and quite puerile. :thumbs:
     
  12. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire
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    Guys...I don't pay attention to him. He is on my IGNORE List.:smilewinkgrin:
     
  13. Jacob_Elliott

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    Ditto :thumbs:
     
  14. preacher4truth

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    Yeah, well, then there are some you can't put on ignore. :laugh: :thumbs:

    I have no one on ignore btw, but probably should. The error they spout is good fodder for sermons to show the sheep what dissident theology is coming up with these days. :thumbs:
     
  15. Protestant

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    These are serious charges you have asserted.

    Either these charges are true or you, sir, are the very false teacher of whom you warn about.

    Unless you wish to make a mockery of this Board and members, you will prove your assertion that 'in the Calvinist scheme of things, it does not matter whether the gospel is presented accurately or not.'

    Please list names and appropriate quotes to prove you, sir, are not a false teacher, a tare sown by the enemy, who comes to steal, kill and destroy.

    Should you not do so, I request THE BAN be your appropriate reward.

    There are too many on this Board who wish serious, biblical discussions.
     
  16. Squire Robertsson

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    I am immediately closing this thread. Equating Calvinists with false teachers is out of line.

    However, how many times have Calvinists in this forum taken non-Cals\Arminians to task for not holding to the one true and proper interpertation of Scripture? Think about it. If it were for the threads title I'd have to think a lot harder about closing this thread.
     
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