Falwell a good Indy Fundy?

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Refreshed, Jan 12, 2003.

  1. Refreshed

    Refreshed
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    In a recent thread, I posted that Liberty U. was a hotbed of ecumenism and that Falwell was a "sell-out" to the SBC.

    Based on known, verifiable information about Falwell and Liberty U., what is *your* opinion on him and his university?
     
  2. Refreshed

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    I'll go first. I stand by my above statements on the other thread. I was given the webpage of the oldest Fundamental Baptist Fellowship (FBFI), and they have made a stand against the Falwellian style of pseudo-Fundamentalism:

    Jason :D
     
  3. Caretaker

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    It might be helpful to cite specific sources, with LINKS, so that the discussion could be more based upon substance, rather than rhetoric and inuendo. Your quote is found in the 1998 Resolutions, but it is merely as you have posted, condemnation without substance.

    It would be very helpful if those who condemn would cite specific instances, and links to the sources, otherwise one is confronted with judgement without presentation of evidence. I find the statement of faith of the FBFI to vary little from the statement of faith from which Falwell bases his doctrines.

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    http://www.liberty.edu/Academics/Religion/Seminary/index.cfm?PID=1954

    WE AFFIRM our belief in one God, infinite spirit, creator of all things, who exists eternally in three persons, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. These three are one in essence but distinct in person and function.

    WE AFFIRM that the Father is the first person of the Trinity and the source of all that God is and does. From Him the Son is eternally generated and from Them the Spirit eternally proceeds. He is the designer of creation, the speaker of revelation, the author of redemption, and the sovereign of history.

    WE AFFIRM that the Lord Jesus Christ is the second person of the Trinity. Eternally begotten from the Father, he is God. He was conceived by the virgin Mary through a miracle of the Holy Spirit. He lives forever as perfect God and perfect man: two distinct natures inseparably united in one person.

    WE AFFIRM that the Holy Spirit is the third person of the Trinity, proceeding from the Father and the Son and equal in deity. He is the giver of all life, active in the creating and ordering of the universe; He is the agent of inspiration and the new birth; He restrains sin and Satan; and He indwells and sanctifies all believers.

    WE AFFIRM that all things were created by God. Angels were created as ministering agents, though some, under the leadership of Satan, fell from their sinless state to become agents of evil. The universe was created in six historical days and is continuously sustained by God; thus it both reflects His glory and reveals His truth. Human beings were directly created, not evolved, in the very image of God. As reasoning moral agents, they are responsible under God for understanding and governing themselves and the World.

    WE AFFIRM that the Bible, both Old and New Testaments, though written by men, was supernaturally inspired by God so that all its words are the written true revelation of God; it is therefore inerrant in the originals and authoritative in all matters. It is to be understood by all through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, its meaning determined by the historical, grammatical, and literary use of the author's language, comparing Scripture with Scripture.

    WE AFFIRM that Adam, the first man, willfully disobeyed God, bringing sin and death into the world. As a result, all persons are sinners from conception, which is evidenced in their willful acts of sin; and they are therefore subject to eternal punishment, under the just condemnation of a holy God.

    WE AFFIRM that Jesus Christ offered Himself as a sacrifice by the appointment of the Father. He fulfilled the demands of God by His obedient life, died on the cross in full substitution and payment for the sins of all, was buried, and on the third day arose physically and bodily from the dead. He ascended into heaven where He now intercedes for all believers.

    WE AFFIRM that each person can be saved only through the work of Jesus Christ; through repentance of sin and by faith alone in Him as Savior. The believer is declared righteous, born again by the Holy Spirit, turned from sin, and assured of heaven.

    WE AFFIRM that the Holy Spirit indwells all who are born again, conforming them to the likeness of Jesus Christ. This is a process completed only in heaven. Every believer is responsible to live in obedience to the Word of God in separation from sin.

    WE AFFIRM that a church is a local assembly of baptized believers, under the discipline of the Word of God and the lordship of Christ, organized to carry out the commission to evangelize, to teach, and to administer the ordinances of believer's baptism and the Lord's table. Its offices are pastors and deacons, and it is self-governing. It functions through the ministry of gifts given by the Holy Spirit to each believer.

    WE AFFIRM that the return of Christ for all believers is imminent. It will be followed by seven years of great tribulation, and then the coming of Christ to establish His earthly kingdom for a thousand years. The unsaved will then be raised and judged according to their works and separated forever from God in hell. The saved, having been raised, will live forever in heaven in fellowship with God.


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    http://f-b-f.org/main.asp?id=2

    Article III - Statement of Faith

    Section 1. The Scripture: We believe in the Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments alone as verbally, plenarily inspired of God, without error in the original writings and the sole authority of faith and practice, providentially preserved as God’s eternal Word (2 Pet. 1:21; 2 Tim. 3:16,17; 1 Pet. 1:23 (b)-25). We believe in a dispensational understanding of the Bible based on the progressive unfolding of the divine mysteries from God, which result in distinguishable stewardships of God’s truth (Heb. 1:1-3; Eph. 1:10; 1 Cor. 10:31).

    Section 2. The Godhead: We believe in one God, an eternal Spirit existing in three distinct uncreated Persons—God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit—yet One in essence and equal in every divine perfection and attribute (Deut. 6:4; Matt. 3:13-17; Matt. 28-19; 2 Cor. 13:14).

    Section 3. Jesus Christ: We believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, God’s eternal Son Who was begotten by the Holy Spirit, born of the virgin Mary, and is truly God and truly Man, one Person with two natures, divine and human (Matt. 1:18-20; John 1:1,2,14). We believe the Lord Jesus Christ died as a substitutionary sacrifice for the sins of all men according to the Scriptures, and all who receive Him are justified on the grounds of His shed blood (2 Cor. 15:3; 2 Cor. 5:21; Rom. 3:21-26; Heb. 2:9; 1 Jn. 2:2). We believe in the resurrection of the crucified body of our Lord Jesus Christ, in His bodily ascension into Heaven, and in His present life there as High Priest for us (Matt. 28:1-10; Acts 1:9; Heb. 7:25-28). We believe in the imminent return of Christ prior to the inauguration of Daniel's seventieth week, at which time all believers in Christ will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air, and be kept from the promised period of divine wrath upon the Earth (Dan. 9:24-27; 1 Thess. 4:14-17; 1 Cor. 15:51-53; 1 Thess. 5:9; Rom. 5:9).

    Section 4. The Holy Spirit: We believe in the eternal deity and personality of the Holy Spirit Who is one of the three Persons of the Trinity. We believe the following are among His ministries: the restraining of evil in the world to the measure of the divine will; the conviction of the world regarding sin, righteousness, and judgment; the calling and regeneration of all believers; the indwelling of those who are saved; and, the continued filling for power, teaching, and service of all among the saved who are truly yielded to Him (Rom. 8:28, 29; 1 Cor. 1:24; 2 Thess. 2:7; John 3:6; 16:7-11; Rom. 8:9; Eph. 4:30, 5:18). We believe the Holy Spirit produces His fruit in the lives of all believers (Gal. 5:22, 23; Col. 1:10, 12). We believe some gifts of the Holy Spirit were temporary. We believe that certain gifts, being miraculous in nature, were prevalent in the church in the first century. They were foundational and transitional. These gifts have ceased, being no longer needed because the Scriptures have been completed and the church has been divinely certified (Heb. 2:1-4; 1 Cor. 13:8-12; Eph. 2:20). We believe that speaking in tongues was never the common or necessary sign of the filling or baptism of the Spirit. We believe God, in accord with His own will, does hear and answer prayer for the sick and afflicted (1 Cor. 12:11, 30; 13:8; James 5:14-16).

    Section 5. Man: We believe that man was created directly by God on day six of the creation week (Gen 1:26-31), in His image (Jas 3:9), and in a state of sinlessness (Eph 4:24). We believe that originally man freely chose to transgress the will of God, and thereby, incurred sin, condemnation, physical and spiritual death (Gen 3:1-7; Rom 5:12-19; Eph 2:1-3) so that man is a sinner by nature and by choice, completely depraved, destitute of any moral good, and utterly unable to merit God's favor or contribute to his salvation (Rom 3:10; Jer 17:9; Eph 2:9; Titus 3:5; Rom 4:5-6).

    Section 6. Salvation: We believe in the salvation of sinners through Jesus of Nazareth, the Son of God, Who is the only Savior of men by virtue of His shed blood, i.e., His substitutionary death for sinners. We believe that salvation is completely dependent on the grace of God, is a free gift of God that man cannot earn or merit in any way, and is appropriated by repentance and faith in the person and cross work of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. We hold that in salvation the believer is called, regenerated, Spirit baptized into union with Christ, justified, (including the forgiveness of sin and restoration to favor with God through the merit or righteousness of Christ), adopted, sanctified, and glorified. We believe that God secures and guarantees the final salvation of every true believer, and that the genuine believer will continue in his faith and show evidence of his faith in Christ until he meets the Lord. We believe all the elect of God, once saved, are kept by God’s power and are secure in Christ forever (Jn. 14:6; Rom. 3:25; Is. 53:4-6; Eph. 2:9; Jn. 16:8-11; Acts 20:21; Eph. 2:8-10; Jn. 1:13; Rom. 6:3-5; Rom. 5:1; Rom. 8:15; Heb. 10:10, 14; Rom. 8:30; Jn. 6:39; 2 Cor. 5:17; 1 Jn. 2:19; 1 Cor. 15:2; Rom. 8:37-37).

    Section 7. Sanctification: We believe sanctification is presented in three senses in Scriptures: (1) every saved person has been sanctified through the death of Christ; (2) is being sanctified by the Holy Spirit; and, (3) will be completely sanctified at his glorification. Every believer has two natures, old and new, and the old cannot be eradicated during this life (Heb. 10:10; John 17:17; Eph. 5:25-27; 1 Thes. 4:13-18; Gal. 5:17; Rom. 7:18-25).

    Section 8. Separation: We believe in the biblical doctrine of separation which encompasses: (1) separation of the local church from all affiliation and fellowship with false teachers who deny the verities of the Christian faith, and from those who are content to walk in fellowship with unbelief and inclusivism (from Christian individuals or organizations that affiliate with those who deny the faith or are content to walk with those who compromise the doctrine and practice of Scripture (2 Thess. 3:6; 1 Cor. 5:1-11; 1 Tim. 1:18-20; Mt. 18:15-17; (2) separation of the individual believer from all worldly practices (philosophies, goals, lifestyles, amusements, habits, and practices) that dishonor the Savior; and, (3) separation of church and state (2 Tim. 3:1-5; Rom. 12:1-2; 14:13; 1 John 2:15-17; 2 John 9-11; Matt. 22:21).

    Section 9. The Church: We believe in the Church - a living, spiritual body of which Christ is the Head, and of which all regenerated people in this age are a part. We believe the Church is a body peculiar to the age of grace and entirely distinct from national Israel. We believe a local church is a company of believers in Jesus Christ, immersed upon a credible confession of faith and associated for worship, work of the ministry, evangelism, observance of the ordinances (baptism and the Lord’s supper), and fellowship. We believe the local church is autonomous, the center of God's program for this age, and that every Christian is bound by Scripture to give his unhindered cooperation to the ministry of his local church (Matt. 16:16-18; 1 Cor. 12:12-17; Acts 2:42-47; 1 Tim. 3:15-16; Eph. 4:11, 12; Mt. 28:19, 20; Acts 1:8). We believe that the local church is an autonomous body having the God-ordained right of self-government, free from the interference of any religious hierarchy, solely responsible to preserve its own internal integrity, maintain pure doctrine and practice, elect its own officers, ordain men to the ministry, settle its own internal affairs, and determine the method and extent of its cooperation with other churches (Jude 3; Acts 6:1-6; Acts 13:1-3; 1 Cor. 6:1-5; Act 15). The proper form of church government is congregational (Mt. 18:15-17; Acts 6:1-6; 1 Cor. 5: 4, 5). The two scriptural offices of the local church are pastor and deacon (1 Tim. 3:1, 8).

    Section 10. The Ordinances: We believe there are two ordinances: baptism and the Lord's Supper. Baptism is the immersion of a believer in water and is properly called "believer's baptism." It sets forth, in a beautiful and solemn way, our identification with Christ in His death, burial, and resurrection, and the resultant responsibility to "walk in the newness of life" (Rom. 6:4). Baptism is a prerequisite to church membership. The Lord's Supper is the commemoration of the Lord's death until He comes, is a reminder of our continual fellowship with Him, and should be preceded by careful self-examination (Matt. 28:19-20; Acts 8:36-39; Rom. 6:3-5; 1 Cor. 11:23-32).

    Section 11. The Great Commission: We believe the Lord Jesus Christ has commissioned us to take the Gospel to the world, and evangelism and church-planting at home and abroad should be primary in the program of the local church, which includes baptism and instruction of believers (Matt. 28:19-20; Acts 1:8).

    Section 12. Last Things: We believe in the imminent rapture of the church to Heaven followed by a seven-year period of tribulation upon all the Earth. At the end of the period of tribulation, Jesus Christ shall come back to Earth in power and glory with His Church to establish the promised Davidic Kingdom. He shall reign for one thousand years during which time peace and righteousness will cover the earth, Satan shall be bound, and Israel shall be established in her own land. At the end of this glorious reign, Satan shall lead a rebellion against Christ, shall be defeated, and shall be forever banished to the Lake of Fire. The wicked dead shall be judged at the Great White Throne, and shall be condemned to everlasting conscious punishment in the Lake of Fire. The righteous shall be in eternal conscious blessedness in the presence of the Lord (John 14:3; Matt. 24:21; Rev. 19:11-16; 21:1-15; Ezek. 39:25-29; 1 Thess. 4:17).
     
  4. Pastor Larry

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    But remember, fundamentalism is not just about a statement of faith, as a knowledge of historic fundamentalism would prove. It was also about a commitment to a biblical response to error or disobedience. This is where Falwell left the ranks. It is not about what he believes; it is about what he does.
     
  5. Caretaker

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    Judgement demands evidence. The thread questions is Falwell a fundamentalist. Refreshed declares the FBFI as fundamentalist, and according to their statement of faith I would concur. In their condemnation of Falwell they present no evidence.

    The FBFI statement of faith and the Liberty U. Seminary statement of faith are both fundamentalist in statement, as I have presented. This is evidence presented for Liberty Seminary being fundamentalist. This is substative evidence. The ONLY substative evidence presented in regards to Falwell in this thread or the thread on dangers to fundamentalisim, in regards to Falwell.

    To stand outside the church door, and make declarations without presentation of evidence, are words without substance, wells without water.

    If you would present a contrast/comparison, with specifics, then one might be able to consider the evidence.
     
  6. Refreshed

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    I did post the link. Look again, it's FBFI in paretheses.

    Here it is if you don't want to get it off my previous post.

    http://www.f-b-f.org

    Jason
     
  7. Caretaker

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    Jason I went to the link and found the statement, as I reiterated in my first and second post:

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    Caretaker

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    Member # 3513

    posted January 13, 2003 01:57 AM
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    It might be helpful to cite specific sources, with LINKS, so that the discussion could be more based upon substance, rather than rhetoric and inuendo. Your quote is found in the 1998 Resolutions, but it is merely as you have posted, condemnation without substance.

    It would be very helpful if those who condemn would cite specific instances, and links to the sources, otherwise one is confronted with judgement without presentation of evidence. I find the statement of faith of the FBFI to vary little from the statement of faith from which Falwell bases his doctrines.

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    Caretaker

    Member
    Member # 3513

    posted January 13, 2003 10:30 AM
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    Judgement demands evidence. The thread questions is Falwell a fundamentalist. Refreshed declares the FBFI as fundamentalist, and according to their statement of faith I would concur. In their condemnation of Falwell they present no evidence.


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    98.13 CONCERNING "PSEUDO-FUNDAMENTALISM":

    The FBF in the late 1970's looked with suspicion at Jerry Falwell's "pseudo-fundamentalism," explaining it as new evangelicalism in embryonic form and declaring that unless drastic changes were made in his direction that the baby born would be new evangelical. The delivery that soon took place confirmed this and Falwell's continued compromise denies him any claim to Biblical Fundamentalism. Those faithful to the cause of Christ, the authority of the Bible and Biblical separatism should continue to warn those over whom they have indigence in order to avoid their deception.

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    This is not evidence but rather a rhetorical accusation without specifics to back it up. They make a broad condemnation, but do not mention specifics as to why they condemn. Wells without water. Please show us water so we can make a judgement. The only evidence so far in this thread is that which I offered in comparing the two statements of faith, which show Liberty as fundamentalist.

    Jason you have set-off the fire alarm, now please show me the fire. Show me specific evidence why we should believe that Jerry Falwell is not a fundamentalist, and why Liberty U. is a hotbed of ecumenicalism.

    Main Entry: ec·u·men·i·cal
    Pronunciation: "e-ky&-'me-ni-k&l
    Function: adjective
    Etymology: Late Latin oecumenicus, from Late Greek oikoumenikos, from Greek oikoumenE the inhabited world, from feminine of oikoumenos, present passive particle of oikein to inhabit, from oikos house -- more at VICINITY
    Date: circa 1587
    1 : worldwide or general in extent, influence, or application
    2 a : of, relating to, or representing the whole of a body of churches b : promoting or tending toward worldwide Christian unity or cooperation
    - ec·u·men·i·cal·ly /-k(&-)lE/ adverb

    A servant of Christ,
    Drew

    [ January 13, 2003, 12:05 PM: Message edited by: Caretaker ]
     
  8. Refreshed

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    What's wrong with this picture?

    [​IMG]

    Falwell has very well-documented ties with the cult leader, Rev. Moon. In fact, Liberty U. has recieved funds, albeit indirectly, from Moon's organization.

    This photo is from Apologetics Index , and shows Moon embracing Rev. Falwell.

    Do a simple search on any search engine for Falwell and Moon, and you will see this is easily verifiable outside of the above website.

    Jason
     
  9. Caretaker

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    Amen Jason!!!

    This is the kind of evidence which shows compromise with iniquity, and with the corruption of Moon's money flowing into Liberty, then there is justified reason for concern. This is the type of evidence which stands.

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    http://www.gospelcom.net/apologeticsindex/u03.html

    "A Church in Flux Is Flush With Cash" by Marc Fisher and Jeff Leen -- part one of a two-part series. An excellent overall, current profile of the Unification Church's fiscal operations. For example, "in the Washington area, ... the movement controls more than $300 million in commercial, political and cultural enterprises. ... a seemingly endless flow of cash [comes] from the Far East. That has enabled them to buy new businesses such as the Nostalgia Network cable channel and even help bail out the Rev. Jerry Falwell's foundering Liberty University. ... 'Of course, the whole thing is to buy respectability,' said Marvin Borderlon, a Roman Catholic ex-priest who is president of the American Conference on Religious Movements, a Rockville-based group that fights discrimination against new religions. The group is funded by the Church of Scientology, the Hare Krishna organization, and most of all, by Unificationists, who give him $3,000 a month, Borderlon said.

    'They'll have a conference on the essence of religious founders, like Buddha, Jesus and guess who,' Borderlon said. 'He gets a room full of academics to sit there while he pronounces himself the Messiah. He gets his picture taken with them. He gets credibility, they get to have their conference. It's all very messy.' ... The road to that credibility, critics say, is paved with cash." Those on the receiving end, as noted in this article, include Col. Oliver L. North, George and Barbara Bush, and Rev. Jerry Falwell. Washington Post, Nov 23 '97, pA01.
    From Apologia Report -- Volume 2: Number 40 -- December 8, 1997

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    Two or three other credible sources, would constitute the two and three witnesses.

    A servant of Christ,
    Drew
     
  10. Refreshed

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    Drew,

    Do a search for the Christianity Today article that talks about Falwell speaking at Moon's meetings. If you don't feel like it, I'll search for it later. I just had my hands on it but didn't bookmark it. If I find it, I'll post the address.

    Jason
     
  11. Refreshed

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    I found it. Here's the link: Falwell/Moon Article

    In the article, Frederick Miller claims Falwell told him he didn't know he would be used to promote Moon's religion and would stop speaking at Unitarian Church functions.

    I'll just quote the last paragraph:

    "I'm a minister to the heathen."

    I think that quote says it all. Maybe he should start serving (ministering to) his congregation instead of serving (ministering to) the heathen.

    Jason
     
  12. Caretaker

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    Thank you very much for the information Jason. I have bookmarked CT because I did not have it, and I saved the article to Word for future reference. You have a very valid evidencery position, and I question Falwell's credibility, for he appears to have compromised integrity for money. Compromise is a very slippery slope, and it would appear that he should repent and return to his roots.

    Where would we be if the early church had compromised for the sake of expediency.

    Thank you for all of your time and information. God bless. I am kind of like the old mule from Missouri, "Show me"... ;)

    A servant of Christ,
    Drew

    [ January 13, 2003, 01:32 PM: Message edited by: Caretaker ]
     
  13. Refreshed

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    I am an old mule from missouri, but I prefer Arizona very much now.

    Jason :D

    [ January 13, 2003, 01:40 PM: Message edited by: Refreshed ]
     
  14. Caretaker

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    Wow scorpions and spiders, instead of twisters and ice stroms..... [​IMG]

    My in-laws have property out in Golden Valley, half way between Kingman and Bullhead City.

    I just wanted to PS. that I completed the Liberty Home Bible Institute, as with the questioner of Falwell in the CT piece. I received a letter from Falwell of congratulations, and that it was understood that I could transfer credits into the External Degree program. I graduated from a local Community College, and when I enrolled in Liberty's external program, I found that all of my CC credits would transfer, but that the LHBI, was worthless towards Degree credit. Also the credit hour cost was astronomical. I deeply appreciated the teaching of Dr. Harold Wilmington, but I felt a sense of betrayal when my hours of work in the LHBI was rejected and dismissed by Liberty University, which placed me 54 hours from degree, rather than 30.

    God bless.

    A servant of Christ,
    Drew

    [ January 13, 2003, 01:58 PM: Message edited by: Caretaker ]
     

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